Do we need the "spiritual elite?"

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pottersclay

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#41
#41
ResidentAlien said:
Maybe, but we don't all set ourselves up as God's special messengers who have the inside scoop that no one else is privy too.
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No we dont all do I know many humble teachers and pastors that you would be amazed at the knowledge they have.
But even Jesus fled from fame and being exalted by the people...untill his time had come.
Many preachers have a hard time with this and have fallen into its trap.
The Lord God said he shares his glory with no man.
 
Aaron56

Aaron56

Well-known member
#43
Jul 12, 2021
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#43
pottersclay said:
The Lord God said he shares his glory with no man.
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Certainly:

Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another..."

But

Jesus prayed this to His Father:

John 17:22,23 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

In Christ, we are not "another".

Ephesians 5:30 "For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones."

It is only in Christ that we share in the glory of God.
 
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pottersclay

Guest
#44
#44
Aaron56 said:
Certainly:

Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another..."

But

Jesus prayed this to His Father:

John 17:22,23 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

In Christ, we are not "another".

Ephesians 5:30 "For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones."

It is only in Christ that we share in the glory of God.
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Absolutely.
We are saved by grace through faith and that not of our own.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#47
#47
While there are those who claim spiritual elite status, they are not. Mostly they are heretics from the pope to the nar, usurpers and scoundrels. The old church called them gnostics.
The scriptures are the open word of God, and when read empowered by God via The Holy Spirit to accomplish the will of God in the reader and the hearer.
Those who study more will obviously know more. Those who are well studied are well equiped to guide the unstudied or less studied. This however is not elite revelation. It is a matter of time and diligence, and obedence. Thus it is written study to show thyself approved, and older men teach the younger men.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
#48
Apr 21, 2021
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#48
Locoponydirtman said:
Those who study more will obviously know more. Those who are well studied are well equiped to guide the unstudied or less studied. This however is not elite revelation. It is a matter of time and diligence, and obedence. Thus it is written study to show thyself approved, and older men teach the younger men.
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I totally agree. For many, "revelation" has replaced study. I don't discount the importance of revelation; but it shouldn't be elevated to a status is doesn't deserve. The way I look at it, revelation and insight come as a result of study. You can't have a "revelation" then twist the scriptures to make them fit your revelation.

Ephesians 1:15-17 says: "Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,"

Paul is writing to "the saints who are in Ephesus." (v.1) He prays that they all might have wisdom and revelation (insight), not just the "elite."
 
N

notonmywatch

Guest
#49
#49
Psalm 119

99I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. 100I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
#50
Apr 21, 2021
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#50
The spiritual elite love titles and status. For example: Dr., Best-Selling Author, Rabbi, Teacher, Father, Monsignor (My Lord), Apostle, Prophet and even Pastor. It's very common these days for the pastor of a church to be addressed as "Pastor" so-and-so. Jesus wasn't that keen on titles. He taught that if someone wants to be great they must assume the lowest place.

"But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:5-12
 
Underwhosewings

Underwhosewings

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#51
Jan 19, 2023
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#51
ResidentAlien said:
When it comes to Bible interpretation, do we need the spiritual elite to explain its hidden meaning or can we each learn objectively by reading and studying? When I say "hidden meaning" I'm referring to those who insist the Bible can only be completely understood by those with special spiritual insight, whose responsibility it is to enlighten the rest of us.

If that's the case, what does this do for objective learning? If the revelation of Jesus Christ is actually a hidden and coded mystery, how can it be called a revelation? Why has the Lord allowed so many Bibles to be put into the hands of so many if His design was for only an elite few to interpret it for the rest of us? Why should we even bother if it's a hopeless mystery?

The Spirit interprets God's word for us but He does so according to human understanding and normal rules of speech: syntax, grammar and context. We all need a hand at times with understanding His word and this is when a good teacher might come in handy; but we shouldn't rely on the spiritual elite. Too often they have ulterior motives.
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1 Samuel 3:11-12 KJV
And the Lord said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle.
[12] In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his house: when I begin, I will also make an end.
 
Underwhosewings

Underwhosewings

Well-known member
#52
Jan 19, 2023
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#52
ResidentAlien said:
The spiritual elite love titles and status. For example: Dr., Best-Selling Author, Rabbi, Teacher, Father, Monsignor (My Lord), Apostle, Prophet and even Pastor. It's very common these days for the pastor of a church to be addressed as "Pastor" so-and-so. Jesus wasn't that keen on titles. He taught that if someone wants to be great they must assume the lowest place.

"But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:5-12
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(It’s an office/charge)
1 Timothy 3:1,13 KJV
This is a true saying, If a man
desire the office
of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [13] For they that have
used the office of a deacon
well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

(It’s a ministry )
Ephesians 4:11-12 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
 
Underwhosewings

Underwhosewings

Well-known member
#53
Jan 19, 2023
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Australia
#53
ResidentAlien said:
The spiritual elite love titles and status. For example: Dr., Best-Selling Author, Rabbi, Teacher, Father, Monsignor (My Lord), Apostle, Prophet and even Pastor. It's very common these days for the pastor of a church to be addressed as "Pastor" so-and-so. Jesus wasn't that keen on titles. He taught that if someone wants to be great they must assume the lowest place.

"But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:5-12
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If they love titles then they are not spiritual and quite possibly not building the church but a denomination.
The High Priests put Jesus Christ to death.
 
Aaron56

Aaron56

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#54
Jul 12, 2021
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#54
ResidentAlien said:
Do not call anyone on earth your father;
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And then Paul wrote:

"For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Therefore I urge you, imitate me. For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church."

He's claiming to have given birth to the Corinthian believers and to Timothy: where there is a son there is necessarily a father. Is Paul walking too close to the cliff edge? How do you understand this?
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#55
Oct 6, 2011
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#55
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#56
Dec 15, 2018
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#56
I dont know about 'spiritual elite' whether you mean Pharisees


God turned around one Pharisee...Saul
He humbled himslf and became Paul

All the other apostles had the Holy spirit teaching and guiding them so they could in turn preach to others.
what is the church is built on ?

Belief in Jesus Christ of Nazareth as Lord and saviour who rose from the dead.

There is no need to complicate things. We all become a priesthood of believers with different (divers) gifts and none of these gifts are above the others, though we are all encouraged to have them esp to Prophesy.

These gifts are just to help others spread the Word about Him. I dont really see theres any 'spiritual elite'. Yes people are elders but thats the natural course of things, the elders are meant to look after the younger.

Unfortunately many miss this calling. They dont like children and dont deem them worthy, but Jesus never forbade them from the kingdom.
 
T

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
#57
Jan 17, 2023
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#57
ResidentAlien said:
When it comes to Bible interpretation, do we need the spiritual elite to explain its hidden meaning or can we each learn objectively by reading and studying? When I say "hidden meaning" I'm referring to those who insist the Bible can only be completely understood by those with special spiritual insight, whose responsibility it is to enlighten the rest of us.

If that's the case, what does this do for objective learning? If the revelation of Jesus Christ is actually a hidden and coded mystery, how can it be called a revelation? Why has the Lord allowed so many Bibles to be put into the hands of so many if His design was for only an elite few to interpret it for the rest of us? Why should we even bother if it's a hopeless mystery?

The Spirit interprets God's word for us but He does so according to human understanding and normal rules of speech: syntax, grammar and context. We all need a hand at times with understanding His word and this is when a good teacher might come in handy; but we shouldn't rely on the spiritual elite. Too often they have ulterior motives.
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No, that's the Catholic view. I have a pastor and I respect him. He's well read has a lot of knowledge. But he has said from the pulpit before " I don't know everything. If you have a question I can't answer we can search the Scriptures together till we find and answer." There is helpful information from those who have written books, sure. But nothing should replace your own study and discernment of the Word.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#59
Jul 8, 2018
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#59
ResidentAlien said:
We're told to test all things, whether preaching, teaching or prophecy. And how do we test things? Something may sound good and even seem to be a revelation from God. But are we told to trust our instincts or something else?

Acts 18:28 " . . . for he [Apollos] vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ."

Acts 17:11 "These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so."

I agree we all need help at times understanding the Bible; but we've been sold a bill of goods that says only certain people who have a special gift or training are qualified to explain the Bible. What we need to be doing instead of making people dependent on the spiritual elite is to teach them how to read and understand the Bible properly so they can learn for themselves. Seems to me this is what someone with a true gift for teaching would do.
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I gave you an example in Zeph 3, in which you, evidently, could not understand, by evidence of your request for "English please"

Another example; Those of God's born again children, who are teaching, and preaching eternal salvation is accomplished by their good works, are blinded to the truth (lost sheep of the house of Israel). Until they come to repentance, they will stay blinded.

When a child of God is depending upon their own entelect to understand the truths of the gospel, the Holy Spirit within them will not reveal any truths to them, else they would take credit for their entelect, instead of giving God credit.

Those who have humbled themselves and put their trust in the revelation of the Holy Spirit to give them a knowledge of the truth of God's righteousness (the remnant of the house of Israel) are instructed to preach and teach and pray , that the lost sheep of the house of Israel might come to repentance of trusting in the old law for their righteousness.

Now read Rom 10:1-3, and Zeph 3 again, and see if it makes any sense to you.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
#60
Apr 21, 2021
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#60
ForestGreenCook said:
The scriptures that I referred to you are written in English. If you would explain what more that you want, I will be happy to respond.
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That's okay, I probably wouldn't get the explanation either.
 
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