Justified/Saved by Faith & Faith Alone

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Bob-Carabbio said:
Any work done by FAITH



Don't be ridiculous!!! WHether you like it or not FAITH produces works. they're the RESULT of it.



Read James again!!! That's EXACTLY what it teaches



Here we go with "Word games". What does DEAD FAITH accomplish (since it's DEAD). Dead faith gonna SAVE you???
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What is dead was once alive. James employed "dead" for a reason.

This word does not equate to genuine, it just does not.

We should not be changing the meaning of words to make them fit our dogma.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
please stop with the augustine/calvin stuff. this is not about them and I am neither of the two. noe does my belief come from them. We need to open our minds and stop fighting doctrines and just look to the word.

James states plainly.

James 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone claims he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

this is the context of what james is saying

1. He does not say they have faith, he said they CLAIMED to have faith
2. He asked the question. can this "claimed" faith save them (salvation is in question)

He is talking to people who claim they have faith, who say they are questions. he is asking them, if you claim you have faith but have no works, can faith really save you??

he then states that CLAIMED faith is dead (no faith at all)

again, a faith that id dead is no faith at all.. It can not save!!
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This is a well known fact about Augustine I have read his work. Have you?
 
HeIsHere said:
Agree. One either believes or one does not.

There is only one gospel, therefore there is no "mere faith."

Belief/ Faith is not enough so we have to backload works onto the Gospel to that now people have to prove their faith.
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The jews believed in jesus and believed in the gospel. Yet they added works of the law and said you must do these works to be saved also.

did this so called belief save them? What was their faith in?

there is most certainly mere faith. We call that mentall agreement, I can believe something yet not trust it. We do it all the time.
 
HeIsHere said:
What is dead was once alive. James employed "dead" for a reason.

This word does not equate to genuine, it just does not.

We should not be changing the meaning of words to make them fit our dogma.
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Did James say their faith was once alive? Did he say they ever had faith?
 
I am leary whenever I hear someone is completely sold out for God and understand how amazing the Gift of their Salvation is but doesn't have a Testimony, never invited anyone to Church or Bible Study, never introduced Christ to anyone, never prayed for someone in need they didn't know, and so forth.

I mean, just how Awesome is this God you serve who you won't share to others?

Chances are for you to be Saved, someone had to Testify, Preach the Gospel, somehow introduced you to God.

And you can't return the favor?

You aint Saved!

Saved people cannot keep their Saviour a secret!
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
The jews believed in jesus and believed in the gospel. Yet they added works of the law and said you must do these works to be saved also.

did this so called belief save them? What was their faith in?

there is most certainly mere faith. We call that mentall agreement, I can believe something yet not trust it. We do it all the time.
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This concept did not exist in ancient times, this is a modern day construct.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
in context. what is the word?
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The context is the entire book of John. Whatever Jesus said would keep someone from death. Jesus expects obedience. I don’t see someone can be a non-disciple disciple of Jesus and expect to actually be a real Christian.

John 8
51Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

John 14
23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 15
10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
 
mailmandan said:
Works-salvationists typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and the end result is salvation by works. Unbelievers do not obey His word (Romans 10:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) no matter how much illegitimate obedience that they attempt to conjure up in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. (Matthew 7:21-23)
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Not easy to see that difference between the sole reason for salvation, and the response to that gift.

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 
HeIsHere said:
This concept did not exist in ancient times, this is a modern day construct.
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No it's not, the letter to the Romans was written to counter and explain the error of Jesus plus the law. The difference between the true gospel and the hybrid gospel, Jesus plus the law. That the Christian Jews in Rome were spreading through the church in Rome.

The letter to the Galatians was identical to the letter to the Romans, same problem.
 
Runningman said:
The context is the entire book of John. Whatever Jesus said would keep someone from death. Jesus expects obedience. I don’t see someone can be a non-disciple disciple of Jesus and expect to actually be a real Christian.

John 8
51Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

John 14
23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 15
10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
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You have the cart before the horse. Here read what John is really saying in John's gospel.

John 3:15
So that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; the one who believes in Me will live, even if he dies.

Obedience to the gospel above is the response to that free gift of salvation. By grace first and through faith and that is the gift, it's has nothing to do with your works.
 
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HeIsHere said:
What is dead was once alive. James employed "dead" for a reason.

This word does not equate to genuine, it just does not.

We should not be changing the meaning of words to make them fit our dogma.
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So what's YOUR definition of "DEAD FAITH"??? WHat did James mean??
 
Bob-Carabbio said:
But with VASTLY different meanings. Heb 11:1 = Biblical FAITH has to have two attributes: "SUbstance" and it has to be an "EVIDENCE".

"Belief" (Mental assent) has no "Substance, and is evidence of NOTHING except how you feel at the time. YOU have to hold on to your "beliefs" and defend them. But Faith holds on to you.
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The primary meaning of, "pistis", in the first century was trust.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; the one who believes in Me will live, even if he dies".

Modern understandings of faith depend heavily on Augustine of Hippo, who defines it (De trin. 13.2.5) as fides quae and fides qua, belief in the body of Christian doctrine and the faith which takes place in the heart and mind of the believer. (www.classics.ox.ac.uk)

First century Jewish and Gentile Christians understood, 'pistis,' as trusting in Jesus, believing in Jesus.

Traditional Christianity follows Augustine's meaning of 'pistis', i.e., faith.
 
Bob-Carabbio said:
It doesn't work to make you RIGHTEOUS, because you can't consistently keep it, as Jesus did. But it's still God's WILL for us.

As a Life plan, it's just fine. Personally I haven't stolen my neighbors wife, Lied, Murdered anybody, or had any other Gods.



SO how are YOU doing with you "Perfect living"??
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The law was God's will for the Jews.

The New Testament never states that Gentiles are under the law, not once. Rather, there are numerous verses that state that, Gentiles are not under the law.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 4:15
For the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
 
Runningman said:
The context is the entire book of John. Whatever Jesus said would keep someone from death. Jesus expects obedience. I don’t see someone can be a non-disciple disciple of Jesus and expect to actually be a real Christian.

John 8
51Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

John 14
23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 15
10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
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so in other words. According to what you say here

you better be perfect. If you have disobeyed even once, you have not obeyed the word.

why do you water down Gods word and then look in the mirror and think you are righteous?
 
Inquisitor said:
Negative. Same Greek word.

When you translate from Greek (belief) into Latin (faith), then translate the Latin into English, you get faith.
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it does not matter

I can believe a person can walk me across the Niagara falls because I have seen them do it before.

It does not mean I trust him..

when push comes to shove, If I have faith. I will go. If not. I will say no thank you.

in both cases you believe. only in the first case do you actually have faith.
 
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