Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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John146

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brightfame52 said:
thererosealamb



Then you dont believe in biblical election because its unto Salvation 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

And as Paul gives example, its something God should be given thanks always for !
Click to expand...
My words in bold

1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. All men includes kings and all that are in authority
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. God will have all men to be saved, same words as verse 1 that include kings and all that are in authority...all men.
 
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rogerg

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John146 said:
My words in bold

1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. All men includes kings and all that are in authority
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. God will have all men to be saved, same words as verse 1 that include kings and all that are in authority...all men.
Click to expand...

Which "all men" are these:

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Only those the Father had chosen to give to Christ, no one else - "giveth me"
 
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rogerg

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John146 said:
My words in bold

1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. All men includes kings and all that are in authority
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. God will have all men to be saved, same words as verse 1 that include kings and all that are in authority...all men.
Click to expand...
What do you think "free gift" in the below means? It simply can't be free as it says it is if someone has to do something, anything, to receive it.

[Rom 5:15 KJV]
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 5:15-16 KJV]
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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rogerg said:
But wouldn't that mean that God still has a special relation with Israel, which I thought we agreed, they don't.
So, the covenant you referenced cannot be eternal nor unconditional because we've demonstrated that the
physical Jews are not the people of God -that was the point of the verse I asked you to interpret.
God divorced the nation of Israel and by it ended their unique relationship with Him.

Here it is again.

[Jer 3:8 KJV]
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
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Jacob, renamed Israel, is representative of God's elect, Rom 9:11, which is spiritual Israel, made up of every kindred, ant tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9).

The larger part of Israel turned away from God, and worshiped idols. The bill of divorce for backsliding Israel, was a separation from God's fellowship, scattering them to the ends of the earth, but not losing their eternal inheritance, until they repent. They are called "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". This separation affects all of us when we commit a sin, until we repent.

Zeph 3:11-13 - In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me; for then I will take away out of the midst of thee, them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain. I will also leave in the midst of thee, an afflicted, and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord.

The remnant of Israel shall do no iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth; for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

It is the responsibility of the remnant to teach the lost sheep of the household of Israel, and praying for their repentance.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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Beckie said:
Looking at this verse
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

What makes a person a Jew Israelite Isrealie etc? Kinda of a silly question i am asking. would you then believe a person who is by human blood 50% Jewish is half saved
I believe the saved what ever the nationality, are all saved by the Blood of Jesus not the blood they are born with but the Blood from above.
FYI i spent about 40 years in Dispensationalism
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I am trusting that you already know that Jacob is spiritual Israel. God changed his name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28), Spiritual Israel is made up of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9). Not all (the nation of) Israel, is of (spiritual) Israel (Rom 9:6).
 
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rogerg

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ForestGreenCook said:
but not losing their eternal inheritance, until they repent. They are called "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". This separation affects all of us when we commit a sin, until we repent.
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Question: do you think they can repent if they are not of the elect? And if they are of the elect, then are they saved because
they are of the nation of Israel or because they are of the elect? Wouldn't it have to be one or the other?
 
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ForestGreenCook

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John146 said:
First off, you selected a verse to prove election and the verse does not contain the word election.🤦‍♂️

Second, what the word is teaching here is that God chose to save the Gentile world through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. You failed to highlight the context.
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Chosen = election. When a politician is chosen to office, they are elected by voters.
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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brightfame52 said:
thererosealamb



Then you dont believe in biblical election because its unto Salvation 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

And as Paul gives example, its something God should be given thanks always for !
Click to expand...


Yes, back from the balloon. I should have been clearer in my answer perhaps. I believe in predestination, that God knows who will be saved. Of course, God knows all. What I do not believe is that God created some to be elected and some to be damned. I do not believe that a person cannot respond to the Gospel if they are not "elected". I do not believe in reading the Bible that that is Gods character.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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John146 said:
My words in bold

1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. All men includes kings and all that are in authority
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. God will have all men to be saved, same words as verse 1 that include kings and all that are in authority...all men.
Click to expand...

When a babe in Christ becomes mature enough to come unto the knowledge of the truth, they are saved=delivered from their ignorance. This verse has nothing to do with eternal deliverance.
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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rogerg said:
What do you think the verse means when it says divorced?
There were TWO covenants, not one. The spiritual seed is of the eternal one. The physical seed is of the other one.
Click to expand...

I saw the red avatar and thought I was speaking to you. lol Now, I'm back from the balloon. I see that God punished them for disobeying the Mosaic Covenant. But He could not divorce them completely because of His unconditional covenant. That's why Romans says there is a remnant by grace.
 
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rogerg

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ForestGreenCook said:
It is the responsibility of the remnant to teach the lost sheep of the household of Israel, and praying for their repentance.
Click to expand...
Not sure exactly how you're seeing it, but I believe repentance can only be given by God and comes
when one is born again - that is, it is a change of heart from a trust in ourselves for salvation to a trust in Christ.
So, if one is not of the elect, they will not/cannot repent with at true repentance because they will not become born again.

[Rom 2:4 KJV] 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
 
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John146

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rogerg said:
Which "all men" are these:

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Only those the Father had chosen to give to Christ, no one else - "giveth me"
Click to expand...
John 6 is before the d,b,r
 
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John146

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rogerg said:
What do you think "free gift" in the below means? It simply can't be free as it says it is if someone has to do something, anything, to receive it.

[Rom 5:15 KJV]
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 5:15-16 KJV]
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
Click to expand...
Grace...believing is not a work of the law. Next question...
 
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rogerg

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ThereRoseaLamb said:
But He could not divorce them completely because of His unconditional covenant. That's why Romans says there is a remnant by grace.
Click to expand...
I don't think a "not divorce them completely" is logically possible - one is either divorced or they are not. The verse
as I read it, says divorced in its totality, period.
 
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John146

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ForestGreenCook said:
Chosen = election. When a politician is chosen to office, they are elected by voters.
Click to expand...
Using a non-biblical example to explain a biblical concept is not wise. The context of election is always to service, never salvation.
 
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John146

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ForestGreenCook said:
When a babe in Christ becomes mature enough to come unto the knowledge of the truth, they are saved=delivered from their ignorance. This verse has nothing to do with eternal deliverance.
Click to expand...
Are all kings saved? Are all that are in authority saved? Kings and all that are in authority are part of the "all men" in context.
 
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John146

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rogerg said:
I don't think a "not divorce them completely" is logically possible - one is either divorced or they are not. The verse
as I read it, says divorced in its totality, period.
Click to expand...
You're applying that passage to a Christian doctrine after the d,b,r...that's not wise, nor is it rightly dividing.
 
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rogerg

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John146 said:
Grace...believing is not a work of the law. Next question...
Click to expand...
I don't understand this one either. My point was that grace and salvation are not works, period, and therefore,
cannot be invoked by a person. A gift can only be given to someone - especially a free one. Salvation comes from God's grace.
If grace is a gift, then salvation also is a gift. So, your statement that it is not a work of the law makes no sense.
 
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