Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Mar 4, 2020
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@Runningman

Let me try this from another angle.

Isaiah 42

8I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Here, the LORD, or Yahweh, or Jehovah plainly states that he will not give his glory to another.

Compare that to Jesus' prayer here:

John 17

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

You requoted verse 3 earlier today, but what about verse 5? In other words, what about where Jesus prayed for the Father to glorify him with the glory that he had with him before the world was? Remember, we just read that the LORD, or Yahweh, or Jehovah will not give his glory to another, so how could Jesus have had glory with the Father before the world was unless he was the LORD, or Yahweh, or Jehovah as well?

By questioning Christ's divinity, you're actually diminishing Christ's sacrifice on our behalves. In other words, before his incarnation, Jesus was God, and not man. Since his incarnation, Jesus is both God and man, and the man part is very important. Seeing how a man, Adam. lost everything through his disobedience, Christ had to regain it all as a man by his obedience. The one who was the Creator has now been made heir of all things as both God and man, and has been restored to the glory that he once had with the Father before the world was as both God and man. This is extremely important because we can only become joint-heirs with Christ because he has been made an heir, in his humanity, or as a man, himself. Jesus, who was once only fully God, has now been made fully man as well, and he will remain in a place of willful subjection to his Father throughout all of eternity because this was what was required in order for him to redeem us and make us, as humans ourselves, joint-heirs with him. Again, God became both God and man, and the man part is what saves us.
That doesn’t go far enough because your premise is God shares His glory with no one and then Jesus said they shared glory before the world was. That’s your reasoning for why Jesus is God.

Jesus should have something that distinguishes him from a mere human and he should be able to have something we don’t have.

In John 17, Jesus went on to say this:

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

So here we are just these regular disciples sharing in God’s glory. So does that make disciples of Jesus God? Or perhaps it makes them little gods? If sharing God’s glory is a trait of being God then it follows that if a disciple gets glory, too, then they also are God. Or we must scrap that idea and look for something else.
 
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notonmywatch

Guest
That doesn’t go far enough because your premise is God shares His glory with no one and then Jesus said they shared glory before the world was. That’s your reasoning for why Jesus is God.

Jesus should have something that distinguishes him from a mere human and he should be able to have something we don’t have.

In John 17, Jesus went on to say this:

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

So here we are just these regular disciples sharing in God’s glory. So does that make disciples of Jesus God? Or perhaps it makes them little gods? If sharing God’s glory is a trait of being God then it follows that if a disciple gets glory, too, then they also are God. Or we must scrap that idea and look for something else.
There's absolutely no disharmony whatsoever between what I wrote and your response. In fact, I fully anticipated that you were going to quote verse 22 to me. Again, when Jesus was restored to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was or when he was only God, he was restored to it as both God and man. It's the man part that allows these "regular disciples", as you called them, to share in God's glory with Jesus in his humanity.

Btw, that's not anywhere near my only reason as to why Jesus is God, but you didn't actually address my question.

Again, how could Jesus have had glory with the Father before the world was unless he was the LORD, or Yahweh, or Jehovah himself?
 

NilsForChrist

Active member
Jan 31, 2023
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Yes, good find, and he notes this is a partial list:

"Heresies (not all inclusive):
Rejection of the Deity/Eternality of Christ
Universalism (everyone ends up in heaven eventually)
Rejection of the Omniscience/Omnipotence/Omnipresence of God
Rejection of the Trinity"
Add Annihilationism and soul sleep
 
Dec 21, 2020
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I just want to say one can believe that Christ Jesus is Emmanuel (God with Us) and not embrace the classical trinity view.
I have friends who have this view.

They believe that Jesus always was and always will be God.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are titles as opposed to three distinct persons.
Are you referring to Modalism? Some Pentecostals hold that view.

I have not really read up on this view but I feel that this is not heretical. imho.
Well... Is knowing who God is important?

Is God one entity who manifests Himself in three "modes," or is God one being consisting of three distinct "Persons"? Or is God the God and Father of Jesus Christ, the one Jesus himself said is "the only true God" (John 17:3)?
 
Dec 21, 2020
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To be fair, this whole dual nature of Christ thing has been confusing people for many, many years, so I'm certainly willing to cut him, or anybody else, a lot of slack as long as the conversation remains open and honest.
Very true, and rightfully so. It's one of the incomprehendible mysteries, right? :) I mean, how can someone be 100% one nature, and 100% another nature?
 
Dec 21, 2020
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Again, how could Jesus have had glory with the Father before the world was unless he was the LORD, or Yahweh, or Jehovah himself?
Jesus Christ had glory with the Father before the world was in the same way he was "slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8): in God's plan.
 
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notonmywatch

Guest
Jesus Christ had glory with the Father before the world was in the same way he was "slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8): in God's plan.
I'm sorry, but that's the wrong answer.

Hebrews 2

6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Here, the author was quoting what David, the "one" of verse 6, said in a certain place, or in Psalm 8, in relation to Jesus Christ. Before I expound a bit on what he said here, let me first establish that Jesus Christ is both God and the Creator of all things. Here are but a couple of many possible examples that I could easily give of this biblical truth:

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Jesus is God (John 1:1). He was there in the beginning (John 1:1), or he is before all things (Colossians 1:17). By him all things consist (Colossians 1:17), or all things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made (John 1:3). The all things that he made or created includes things that are in heaven (Colossians 1:16), or things which are normally invisible (Colossians 1:16), such as angelic beings, which are here described as thrones, dominions, principalities, or powers (Colossians 1:16).

Although Jesus made or created the angels as God, there was a time, during his incarnation, when he was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death (Hebrews 2:9), even as had been foretold in Psalm 8:5. After his resurrection from the dead and ascension back to the Father in heaven, Jesus was crowned with glory and honor (Psalm 8:5, Hebrews 2:9). In other words, this is when Jesus' prayer request in John 17:5 was fulfilled, or this is when the Father glorified Jesus with the glory that he had with him before the world was. The major difference, however, is that now Jesus was restored to his former glory as both God and man. Again, it is only because Jesus has been restored to his former glory as a man, or in his humanity, that we can share in his glory as human beings ourselves (John 17:22).

With these truths in mind, let's take a quick look at what Paul wrote to the saints at Philippi.

Philippians 2

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It's the same exact scenario as the one that I've been describing all along.

Before his incarnation, or before he made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men (Philippians 2:7), Jesus was in the form of God, and he had equality with God (Philippians 2:6). During his incarnation, he was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death (Psalm 8:5, Hebrews 2:9). or he became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross (Philippians 2:8). After his resurrection from the dead and ascension back to the Father in heaven, God the Father highly exalted him, and gave him a name which is above every name (Philippians 2:9), or crowned him with glory and honor (Psalm 8:5, Hebrews 2:9), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in the earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:10-11). This last part is very important in relation to this present discussion because it is a fulfillment of what the prophet Isaiah wrote here:

Isaiah 45

22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

GOD spoke this, and this GOD who spoke it was none other than Jesus Christ. JESUS is the GOD who swore this by himself, and what he swore is that unto him every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall swear or confess, even as Paul rightly attributed this to him in his epistle to the Philippians.

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD.

To deny this truth is to deny him.

I'd strongly advise you and anybody else reading this who presently believes otherwise to repent and to adjust your beliefs in accordance to what the Bible actually teaches in relation to who Jesus Christ truly is.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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so Who is He?

there is only one God -- only One divine.
Look at the reaction from the Jews in John 10:33 - The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." The Jews clearly understood Jesus’ statement as a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus did not correct the Jews by saying, "I did not claim to be God." That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) in essence/nature.

Speaking from His humanity, Jesus said, "the Father is greater than I," (John 14:28) but when speaking from His Divinity, Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30) The fact that Jesus was fully man and fully God seems to be a major source of confusion for anti-Trinitarians.

The Word was with God and the Word was God (vs. 1) and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (vs. 14) is a crystal clear reference to Jesus. Verses 2-3 also confirm His Deity.

Other passages of Scripture where Jesus is unquestionably called God

Isaiah 7:14 - A Child Will Be Born And His Name Is Called": "Emanuel: God with us"
Isiah 9:6 - A Child Will Be Born And His Name Is Called: "Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace
John 20:28 - Thomas said to Jesus, 'My Lord and My God'
Hebrews 1:8 - Father addresses the Son as God

Colossians 2:9 - For in Him all the fullness of Deity (the Godhead) dwells in bodily form [completely expressing the divine essence of God]. (AMP) Jesus is God.
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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One must believe “ALL” Scripture when it comes to knowing who Jesus is. To be able to “Reconcile” verses that seem at odds is a matter of study and prayer. We are commanded (in the Greek) to “Study” to show thyself approved. To study independently of the Holy Spirit is futile.

There was a time in history, and even now, where many unsaved people can quote the Scriptures better than Christians, and spout its history and discuss prominent individuals of the past with ease. The leading Religious leaders at the time of Jesus likewise could quote most any OT verse and provide flowing commentary, but most were lost as a goose.

Jesus said, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” Till one is truely saved and given a new heart, it will make no sense that Jesus is God.

The term hypostatic union is a term that theologians have coined to explain the unexplainable.

We can no more phantom Jesus with human intelligence that we can understand eternity. That is why faith, but more importantly, the object of our faith, must be in the only One that make sense of our lives here, and eternity.
 
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notonmywatch

Guest
One must believe “ALL” Scripture when it comes to knowing who Jesus is. To be able to “Reconcile” verses that seem at odds is a matter of study and prayer. We are commanded (in the Greek) to “Study” to show thyself approved. To study independently of the Holy Spirit is futile.
Exactly. Cults operate by taking only certain texts on a topic and then presenting them to others as if they were the whole. I'm fair enough to recognize that this can be a confusing topic at first, but it shouldn't remain the least bit confusing when one examines all of the scriptures side by side. Are there verses which clearly portray Jesus as a man? Yes, there are. However, there are also plenty of verses which also clearly portray Jesus as God. Again, he needed to partake of both natures in order to be the only true mediator between both God and men. This really isn't that complicated of a matter. It only becomes complicated when people stubbornly refuse to see what all of the scriptures have to say on this matter.
There was a time in history, and even now, where many unsaved people can quote the Scriptures better than Christians, and spout its history and discuss prominent individuals of the past with ease. The leading Religious leaders at the time of Jesus likewise could quote most any OT verse and provide flowing commentary, but most were lost as a goose.
True. I'm sorry, but I had to laugh when you said "lost as a goose". I had never heard that before, and I just Googled it. Apparently, it's short for lost as a goose in a snowstorm.
Jesus said, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” Till one is truely saved and given a new heart, it will make no sense that Jesus is God.
Yep, EVERY word.
The term hypostatic union is a term that theologians have coined to explain the unexplainable.
Personally, I don't believe that it's truly unexplainable if we really consider everything that the Bible has to say in relation to it.
We can no more phantom Jesus with human intelligence that we can understand eternity. That is why faith, but more importantly, the object of our faith, must be in the only One that make sense of our lives here, and eternity.
I think you meant "fathom" and not "phantom". Phantoms are what certain people become when you confront them with truths that they stubbornly refuse to accept. In other words, they eventually disappear, only to reappear elsewhere.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I just want to say one can believe that Christ Jesus is Emmanuel (God with Us) and not embrace the classical trinity view.
I have friends who have this view.

They believe that Jesus always was and always will be God.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are titles as opposed to three distinct persons.

I have not really read up on this view but I feel that this is not heretical. imho.
That's called 'modalism'

:LOL:
Good thing there are an infinite number of angles, maybe you will find the right one!
Ooh! Ooh!

Try 90°
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Jesus should have something that distinguishes him from a mere human and he should be able to have something we don’t have.
John 8:23
He said to them,
"You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."

here is one thing

Matthew 11:27
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and [the one] to whom the Son wills to reveal [Him.]

here is another

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her,
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

and another

Matthew 5:33-34
"Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' But I say to you, do not swear at all"

and another

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

and another for good measure



  • He alone among men came from above
  • He alone among men knows the Father and reveals Him
  • He alone does not 'have' life but IS life
  • Moses and all the prophets said 'thus saith the LORD' but He alone among men says "I say to you" giving the commandment of God
  • He alone among men is the subject of the testimony of all scripture
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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Jesus Christ had glory with the Father before the world was in the same way he was "slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8): in God's plan.
Revelation 22:3-4
And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face, and His name [shall be] on their foreheads.

One throne, singular
The throne of God and the Lamb

Who is it that sits upon it?

His servants, a singular possessive pronoun of plural posessions
Whose servants?

His face, singular - Whose face?


God and the Lamb
Both are One
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,951
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One must believe “ALL” Scripture when it comes to knowing who Jesus is. To be able to “Reconcile” verses that seem at odds is a matter of study and prayer. We are commanded (in the Greek) to “Study” to show thyself approved. To study independently of the Holy Spirit is futile.

There was a time in history, and even now, where many unsaved people can quote the Scriptures better than Christians, and spout its history and discuss prominent individuals of the past with ease. The leading Religious leaders at the time of Jesus likewise could quote most any OT verse and provide flowing commentary, but most were lost as a goose.

Jesus said, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” Till one is truely saved and given a new heart, it will make no sense that Jesus is God.

The term hypostatic union is a term that theologians have coined to explain the unexplainable.

We can no more phantom Jesus with human intelligence that we can understand eternity. That is why faith, but more importantly, the object of our faith, must be in the only One that make sense of our lives here, and eternity.
The issue we get is pride. People can not wrap around scripture that seems to refute their belief system. So they focus on the ones that appears to support them, but do not want to even really discuss the passages that clearly do not support them

So we get those tha focus on pet passages.. Like James 2, Acts 2 and others..
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,481
695
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Exactly. Cults operate by taking only certain texts on a topic and then presenting them to others as if they were the whole. I'm fair enough to recognize that this can be a confusing topic at first, but it shouldn't remain the least bit confusing when one examines all of the scriptures side by side. Are there verses which clearly portray Jesus as a man? Yes, there are. However, there are also plenty of verses which also clearly portray Jesus as God. Again, he needed to partake of both natures in order to be the only true mediator between both God and men. This really isn't that complicated of a matter. It only becomes complicated when people stubbornly refuse to see what all of the scriptures have to say on this matter.
True. I'm sorry, but I had to laugh when you said "lost as a goose". I had never heard that before, and I just Googled it. Apparently, it's short for lost as a goose in a snowstorm.Yep, EVERY word.Personally, I don't believe that it's truly unexplainable if we really consider everything that the Bible has to say in relation to it.I think you meant "fathom" and not "phantom". Phantoms are what certain people become when you confront them with truths that they stubbornly refuse to accept. In other words, they eventually disappear, only to reappear elsewhere.
Thank you for the comments, and correction. Living in the South lends itself to many obscure euphemisms. I write for a magazine, and should know better, but I usually type in a program that cleans up my alphabet soup. And I edit, and edit, and edit some more, before hitting send.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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Jesus Christ had glory with the Father before the world was in the same way he was "slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8): in God's plan.
This seems like supposition to me.

There is a lot more material in scripture to take into account.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
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“You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me, but you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life.”