Believer or Disciple? What's the Difference?

[notonmywatch]

People tend to do the same with me. If we truly have faith we dtruly have works given us by the Holy Spirit, not by the mere minds of men, not even intellectuals. God bless you always.

Exactly.

It seems to me that a lot of professing Christians base all of their theology upon Ephesians 2:8-9 while conveniently ignoring verse 10.

Ephesians 2

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[JaumeJ]

Who said anything about backloading grace with works?

Do you habitually put words in other people's mouths and then argue with yourself?

I said that we must endure unto the end to be saved, and Jesus said the same thing.

Go argue with him if you want to, but don't expect to win that argument.

Matthew 24

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13

10And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Now when I pray come soon Jesus, I also ask for all who are awaiting His glorious return to be especially prepared for the (these) days leading up to that great moment. Blessing in Jesus Yeshua always, jj

 

[Pilgrimshope]

While reading some bible commentary today, the writer presented an interesting viewpoint. He described the term "disciple" as being broader in scope than "believer." I have always thought of it as the other way around.

Yet, from a historical, biblical viewpoint, I can see where he got this idea. The word disciple in the Gospels did not carry the same connotation it does today.

In 2023, we view disciples as both believers and dedicated pupils of Jesus. But until His death, burial, and resurrection, these first disciples only remained students.

Sure, they believed some aspects of the Gospel, but until Christ revealed Himself alive after His death on the cross, I don't think we could label them "truly saved." I also believe this is why Easter is such an important holiday. As with the first disciples, we must affirm his resurrection before any of it makes sense.

I don't think you can become a disciple without being a true believer. Conversely, I don't think anyone can become an effective believer without being a true disciple.

What are your thoughts?

yeah I think you have good points and see the correlation

aim ancoent times especially on the Roman world philosophy and theology was a very popular thing teachers and disciples were all around a tescher porching his ideas tonthe people gathering up disciples I are simply followers who subscribe to the beliefs of a certain teacher

today we might say “ cults “ but the idea is you have a leader and tescher whomisnthe soirce ofnthe doctrine and then followers who hear and believe the tescher are his disciples

arhats all we are as Christian’s we have a lord teacher in whom we believe , we believe he is divine and the creator of all things nd so his words and teachings become our life’s design and path belief will always and forever lead to discipleship discipleship cannot exist without a preceding belief in the one you follow and have faith in

airs why Jesus said so very many times the things I’m saying believe me it’s all true hear me and live forever accept me and be saved my words are the words of spirit and life hear and believe me tell everyone else the same things I told you d everyone try at believes will be saved

aid we hear what Jesus taught d believe it’s true the action is reaction of that belief because of what it is jesusnos saying he’s talking about eternal salvstion after our body dies every human o believes it is going to follow after that because of the immense promise of life everlasting the one thing man cannot do for themselves and something every human longs for escape from death

of we believe e doctrine and what it’s about the nature of life and wanting to live is going to compel us forward into discipleship

hearing and believing is where it’s all formed and worked

 

[awelight]

While reading some bible commentary today, the writer presented an interesting viewpoint. He described the term "disciple" as being broader in scope than "believer." I have always thought of it as the other way around.

Yet, from a historical, biblical viewpoint, I can see where he got this idea. The word disciple in the Gospels did not carry the same connotation it does today.

In 2023, we view disciples as both believers and dedicated pupils of Jesus. But until His death, burial, and resurrection, these first disciples only remained students.

Sure, they believed some aspects of the Gospel, but until Christ revealed Himself alive after His death on the cross, I don't think we could label them "truly saved." I also believe this is why Easter is such an important holiday. As with the first disciples, we must affirm his resurrection before any of it makes sense.

I don't think you can become a disciple without being a true believer. Conversely, I don't think anyone can become an effective believer without being a true disciple.

What are your thoughts?

Indeed, the word "disciple" is differentiated from the word "believer".

First - let's take a look at the Greek origin of these two words. The Greek word: μαθητής, (Pronounced: math-ay-tes' ), and generally means: A pupil or student. Meaning one who studies a certain subject or one who is taught a certain subject or both. The word "disciple", (singular), appears 30 times in the Four Gospels and the book of Acts but nowhere else in the Scriptures. The plural form: "disciples", appears once in Isa. 8:16 and 239 times in the Four Gospels and the book of Acts.

The Greek word for "believer" does not exist. This is a modern term. The Greek word "believe", is: πιστεύω, (Pronounced: pist-yoo-o), which means: To be in a state of believing. So since the Greek word means: "one who believes", modern translations and society uses the word "believer".

Second - One cannot possess Salvation, if one is not believing with all of their Heart, Mind and Soul. However, one could be a disciple of the Scriptures and only believe with their intellect or be interested because of how they might personally gain from the teaching. Therefore, a disciple can walk away from the Word's of God:

John 6:64-66 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him. 65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father. 66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Third - A believer would be likened to a young child in the faith. That believer is a believer but cannot grow in Grace and knowledge of the Truth unless they become a disciple. A believing disciple bears much fruit and puts on an ever improving "Christ like" nature. Each believer, should have an inward desire to become a disciple and every disciple should have a desire to make believers - disciples. This is the true understanding of the "Great Commission:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Believers are commanded to make disciples out of the Jews and Gentiles (nations), by teaching the believers the Doctrines of the Gospel. As believers we can make disciples however, we can not make believers. Only God can do this.

Finally, I would love to speak to you about the error of Easter but this is not the proper thread for that conversation. Suffice it to say, Easter is a worldly tradition, that has the days and times all wrong based on the Scriptural evidence. Look into the heresy of the "36 hour Gospel".

 

[awelight]

To become a believer, one accepts the free offer of the Gospel.
To become a disciple , costs one everything.
So, every disciple is a believer but not all believers are disciples.

Actually that is not true. A believer is a believer, only if they believe with all their Heart, Mind and Soul.

Mat 22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.

As for a disciple always being a believer -

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
John 6:66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Just trying to be helpful.

 

[SteveEpperson]

I agree entirely. However, many preachers seem also to want their congregation to remain spiritual infants.

I haven't run into this myself, but I believe what you are saying.

 

[SteveEpperson]

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jesus told those who believed on him that they needed to continue in his word in order to truly be his disciples.

You make a good case for reading the Word of God everyday, for sure.

 

[SteveEpperson]

Such a True Statement here ----FOLKS -----------so sad but so true -----

Most Ministers themselves are not even in Christ ---there is not rule that you have to be saved to be a Minister ---

My Brother is a Minister and he is Saved ------and when he entered seminary school he said by the time he left there he was doubting everything he thought was true ------

The people in the pews rely on their ministers to preach the truth -----and they themselves don't know what the truth is -----

I heard the orination process for some denominations is pretty rigorous. Also, if we can't rely on pastors and ministers to tell us the truth, what earthly person can we rely on?

When Jesus commanded us to go make more disciples, I'm certain that was with the understanding that they would not always get it right.

I hope there are pastors out there that would understand this also. I don't think you need a theology degree to mentor someone. Unfortunately, in our credential-crazed culture, we are told to stand back while the pastor does all the work. The ironic thing is that they are the ones who gripe about having to do it.

 

[SteveEpperson]

You cannot backload grace with works to be saved.

This is such a strawman argument and I am so tired of it. Everytime I or someone else even mentions rolling up our sleeves for the Lord, we are met with the can't-get-saved-by-works crowd.

Okay, then . If you don't want to lift a finger for God's purposes, that's your decision. But please don't berate those who do or tell us that we are being unbiblical because we want to work hard...yes, very hard... for God's Kingdom.

 

[SteveEpperson]

nally, I would love to speak to you about the error of Easter but this is not the proper thread for that conversation. Suffice it to say, Easter is a worldly tradition, that has the days and times all wrong based on the Scriptural evidence. Look into the heresy of the "36 hour Gospel".

I get what you're saying. I think we could say that about Christmas, Good Friday, and Thanksgiving as well. Still, if an Easter celebration is done well in an evangelical context, I believe it could lead someone to Christ. Also, it could be a reminder of how vital the resurrection of Chist is for the believer.
JMO.

 

[SteveEpperson]

It seems to me that a lot of professing Christians base all of their theology upon Ephesians 2:8-9 while conveniently ignoring verse 10.

It's frustrating to me as well. It's the not-saved-by-works crowd that use these verses as an excuse not to lift a finger in the church or to help their neighbors. It's fine if they want to stay passive, but I would ask them to get out of the way so the rest of us can work and work and work. And I pray that God will give me even more work tomorrow.

What's most frustrating is that you have many pastors making the same tired excuse as well. ARGGH!

 

[Gideon300]

I heard the orination process for some denominations is pretty rigorous. Also, if we can't rely on pastors and ministers to tell us the truth, what earthly person can we rely on?

When Jesus commanded us to go make more disciples, I'm certain that was with the understanding that they would not always get it right.

I hope there are pastors out there that would understand this also. I don't think you need a theology degree to mentor someone. Unfortunately, in our credential-crazed culture, we are told to stand back while the pastor does all the work. The ironic thing is that they are the ones who gripe about having to do it.

I've met a lot of pastors who are control freaks. Some of it is due to fear. Some is due to pride. Success is measured by bodies on seats, not by spiritual maturity.

Christians need to know for themselves whether or not a teaching is from God. That requires something not every Christian believes in - diligence.

Acts 17:11
"Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true."

The Bereans did not take the apostles at face value. They looked into it themselves. Every Christian has a new spirit and the indwelling Holy Spirit to lead them into truth. I know many Christians who have been deceived because they believed the pastor and not God's word. The word "pastor" is mentioned twice in the NT. The role is afforded far more responsibility and power that God's word grants it.

 

[ResidentAlien]

This is such a strawman argument and I am so tired of it. Everytime I or someone else even mentions rolling up our sleeves for the Lord, we are met with the can't-get-saved-by-works crowd.

The can't-get-saved-by-works crowd are the only ones allowed to do any good works.

 

[studentoftheword]

I heard the orination process for some denominations is pretty rigorous. Also, if we can't rely on pastors and ministers to tell us the truth, what earthly person can we rely on?

------it is our job to know the Scriptures well so we can Discern what is being said by the Minister --Priest ----so we know if they are preaching false Doctrine or Not ------

Anyone can become a Minister -----there is Gretta Vosper who is an ordained Minister --went to Seminary school and was ordained ----she pretended to be a Minister of God and became the Minister in the United Church of Canada and then proclaimed she was an atheist ----and was allowed to remain in that Church to preach ------so go figure ------she is allowed to send her flock to their eternal torment and the Church doesn't care ---that is how I see that -----Many Ministers today preach their own Gospel --and water down Scripture -----so you can say what you like but ---we as individual people need to know the Scriptures well so we can RUN FOREST RUN when we hear preaching that goes against what the Word says -------

You shouldn't trust your Minister or any human to give you the truth of scripture unless you know that they are Born Again and are staying with the Word ----

For instance -----Many ministers teach that God is Love ---truth ---but then they say that no God who is love will ever send anyone to hell ---as long as you are a good person and do good in this world and go to church ---serve in your soup kitchen ---help your church in serving others --then you will go to Heaven ----
Warning ------False Doctrine here ---that goes against what God says in His word ------without Jesus your hell bound ----that is what the scripture says ------


1 John 4

English Standard Version

Test the Spirits

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them.

6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

 

[awelight]

I get what you're saying. I think we could say that about Christmas, Good Friday, and Thanksgiving as well. Still, if an Easter celebration is done well in an evangelical context, I believe it could lead someone to Christ. Also, it could be a reminder of how vital the resurrection of Chist is for the believer.
JMO.

There are many who would agree with you on this point, however, to go beyond the Scriptural methodology to achieve an end, is not a good idea. If a person has received a work of Grace in their heart, they will pursue the Word of God. For in it is the answers they seek. Scripture promises that all who have received Grace, will hunger and thirst after the Truth.

As to the vitality of Christ's resurrection, all believers are reminded of this every day, as they read the Bible. The Word of God is sufficient for all things.

Be well.

 

[SteveEpperson]

The can't-get-saved-by-works crowd are the only ones allowed to do any good works.

If that's the case, then they should stop using it as an excuse to not do anything. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[SteveEpperson]

it is our job to know the Scriptures well so we can Discern what is being said by the Minister --Priest ----so we know if they are preaching false Doctrine or Not ------

Anyone can become a Minister -----there is Gretta Vosper who is an ordained Minister --went to Seminary school and was ordained ----she pretended to be a Minister of God and became the Minister in the United Church of Canada and then proclaimed she was an atheist ----and was allowed to remain in that Church to preach ------so go figure ------she is allowed to send her flock to their eternal torment and the Church doesn't care ---that is how I see that -----Many Ministers today preach their own Gospel --and water down Scripture -----so you can say what you like but ---we as individual people need to know the Scriptures well so we can RUN FOREST RUN when we hear preaching that goes against what the Word says -------

Okay, you have it in writing. So, what you are saying is that every new believer is responsible for their own knowledge concerning the scriptures. If that's the case, we can tear down every church building, stop paying pastors to preach, then take all the money we save and give it to the poor.

I love this idea!

However, you have to admit that it would go a bit easier for that new believer if they had a mature disciple come along side them to help them with their studies. Maybe someone like you?

 

[SteveEpperson]

There are many who would agree with you on this point, however, to go beyond the Scriptural methodology to achieve an end, is not a good idea. If a person has received a work of Grace in their heart, they will pursue the Word of God. For in it is the answers they seek. Scripture promises that all who have received Grace, will hunger and thirst after the Truth.

As to the vitality of Christ's resurrection, all believers are reminded of this every day, as they read the Bible. The Word of God is sufficient for all things.

Therefore, we don't need paid pastors, large buildings, or costly programs.

Awsome! Let's gather up all that money we save and give it to the poor.

 

[ResidentAlien]

If that's the case, then they should stop using it as an excuse to not do anything. Wouldn't you agree?

I wouldn't say all those who believe in eternal security do nothing; but they automatically assume anyone who doesn't buy into eternal security is working for salvation. If they do works it's okay, but if anyone else does good works it's not okay. It's a nice manipulation tactic.

 

[SteveEpperson]

The disciples did not become true believers until they were endowed with the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost

Not unti Pentacost. That's interesting. I think you could make an agrument for that. Thanks for your insight.