Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Everlasting-Grace]

Hi BillG,

I don't know if this is your website or not, but I noticed an error on the one quoted above where the author stated the below:

"unmerited love and favor of God which is the spring and source of all benefits men receive from Him, including especially His assistance given man for his regeneration or sanctification. (Grace is) a virtue from God influencing man, renewing his heart and restraining him from sin. (Compare this more "modern Webster" with Noah Webster's original definition of grace) "

According to the author, grace is unmerited love and favor, but for something to be unmerited, it would require absolutely nothing from us, not even faith, and it wouldn't matter if we sinned in the first place, and the entire point of Christ's sacrifice would be defeated and was wholly unnecessary since we have unmerited love and favor.

So if you make grace = unmerited love and favor, it basically creates a Universalist's doctrine where nothing is required to stay in God's grace, not even a sacrificial lamb, or faith, or anything at all and it's a license to sin as well. Requiring my faith is putting a merit on that grace and contradicts the idea of "unmerited favor."

So my bottom line is, grace doesn't mean favor without merit. That isn't what the definition is in any lexicon or dictionary.

I do not get this misunderstand of Faith. Faith is not something we do. We do not faith something in order to gain something. Its not a work.

We all have faith in things.

Some have faith in works.. that is where their heart is

Some have faith in a religious system

some have faith in the world and its system

some have faith in Christ and all of his work.

The last one is what Grace allows and calls us to do. To stop trusting in self. The world and religion. But to trust in God. And his word. His work and his promise

Thats salvation. That is why Christ died for the world. That whoever trusts in him will never die. But be born again to eternal life.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The word for grace in Ephesians 2:8 means this:

G5485 charis
Strong's Concordance
charis: grace, kindness
Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)
Definition: grace, kindness
Usage: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

So there's nothing about grace being unmerited there. It doesn't exist in the context and the fact that one can fall from grace is further proof that grace isn't unmerited.

Galatians 5
4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

So just using Galatians 5:4 as an example, there is a condition attached to grace, meaning there is something you and I can do to actually not be in God's grace. That's merited grace.

There's more examples, but that's one.

English dictionaries also define grace as favor, kindness, or goodwill with the leeway to make mistakes, keep the grace, with the expectation continual effort is being applied to stay in said grace.

In Christian theology, grace can mean "unmerited favor" but that's actually a denominational teaching rather than a Biblical teaching as I just showed you with Galatians 5:4.

So Christian theology isn't necessarily something explicitly Biblical. "Unmerited grace" is no exception.

Nor by righteous works (deeds) which we have done, but by HIS MERCY he SAVED US (a completed act) by the washing and renewal of the HS.

Thats grace 101

 

[HeIsHere]

One good thing coming out of this whole thing is those who insist Jesus saved everyone and Universalism is the gospel can not insist OSAS is false.

OSAS is false in your dogma, that is correct.

In the real plan of salvation OSAS is true.

 

[Runningman]

Again, what did you do to merit your salvation by grace?

I decided to have faith in the gospel. Yes, it was definitely a decision on my part.

I can still remember hearing about the gospel and thinking I wanted to believe it, but I didn't because I haven't ever seen someone rise from the dead after a few days or ascend in a cloud to heaven. I also didn't understand anything about the necessity of someone dying for my alleged sins when it would have been easier to skip that part and just forgive me.

This is a big part of why the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but for us who believe it is the power of God to salvation.

 

[HeIsHere]

I decided to have faith in the gospel. Yes, it was definitely a decision on my part.

I can still remember hearing about the gospel and thinking I wanted to believe it, but I didn't because I haven't ever seen someone rise from the dead after a few days or ascend in a cloud to heaven. I also didn't understand anything about the necessity of someone dying for my alleged sins when it would have been easier to skip that part and just forgive me.

This is a big part of why the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but for us who believe it is the power of God to salvation.

Faith is placed in Christ Jesus. The Gospel is the reason we can place our faith in Christ Jesus.

Do you understand this?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

One good thing coming out of this whole thing is those who insist Jesus saved everyone and Universalism is the gospel can not insist OSAS is false.

Who in here thinks jesus saves everyone?

 

[Runningman]

Faith is placed in Christ Jesus. The Gospel is the reason we can place our faith in Christ Jesus.

Do you understand this?

Yes exactly, but the gospel informs us about who Jesus is and what he did. So yes of course I understand that. I wouldn't believe the words of the gospel if I thought Jesus wasn't God's Son.

At some point it goes beyond logic. I have felt in my heart and soul Jesus is God's Son since I was a child even if I didn't understand it, but I was a Santa Claus denier. Imagine being self-aware enough at the age of 5 to humor your adult father who wanted me to believe in Santa Claus and playing along because I saw it made him happy. Yeah, that's the kind of kid I was.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes exactly, but the gospel informs us about who Jesus is and what he did. So yes of course I understand that. I wouldn't believe the words of the gospel if I thought Jesus wasn't God's Son.

At some point it goes beyond logic. I have felt in my heart and soul Jesus is God's Son since I was a child even if I didn't understand it, but I was a Santa Claus denier. Imagine being self-aware enough at the age of 5 to humor your adult father who wanted me to believe in Santa Claus and playing along because I saw it made him happy. Yeah, that's the kind of kid I was.

I dunno you do not believe Jesus is God incarnate.

Maybe someone else here can answer this problem?

If you do not believe the words of Christ, and what He asserts about Himself, how can one really believe anything else about Him?

If someone else can weigh in this I wold surely appreciate it.

 

[Runningman]

I dunno you do not believe Jesus is God incarnate.

Maybe someone else here can answer this problem?

If you do not believe the words of Christ, and what He asserts about Himself, how can one really believe anything else about Him?

If someone else can weigh in this I wold surely appreciate it.

Weigh in on what?

What problem?

I don't see that the "problem" you're assigning to me actually exists. I believe exactly what Jesus said about himself and what others said about him. We already had a long conversation about this.

 

[HeIsHere]

Weigh in on what?

What problem?

I don't see that the "problem" you're assigning to me actually exists. I believe exactly what Jesus said about himself. We already had a long conversation about this.

What you believe is not what Jesus says about Himself, and yes there was a long discussion and Jesus is God was proven again and again, you just refuse to accept this truth.

So yes, I am asking others who know Christ Jesus is God if it is possible to trust Jesus for the gift of salvation when a person does not rightly understand, nor is willing to accept the divine nature of Christ Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

What you believe is not what Jesus says about Himself, and yes there was a long discussion and Jesus is God was proven again and again, you just refuse to accept this truth.

So yes, I am asking others who know Christ Jesus is God if it is possible to trust Jesus for the gift of salvation when a person does not rightly understand, nor is willing to accept the divine nature of Christ Jesus.

I won the debate. My accusers are gone.

Do you believe John 3:16 where God sent His Son so that anyone who believe in him will not perish, but have eternal life?

How about Romans 10:9, if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead to be saved?

Do you believe Philippians 2:9 that every knee will bow at the name of Jesus to the glory of God the Father?

How about John 20:17 where Jesus identified his Father as his God?

 

[HeIsHere]

I won the debate. My accusers are gone.

Your accusers, that is an odd view.

I am actually surprised and dismayed someone who denies Christ Jesus is God incarnate, the central tenet of Christianity, is still on this discussion board.

 

[Runningman]

Your accusers, that is an odd view.

I am actually surprised and dismayed someone who denies Christ Jesus is God incarnate, the central tenet of Christianity, is still on this discussion board.

Yes, I maintain the upper hand here because I can quote what the Bible says is required for salvation. You'll find nowhere, anywhere, in the gospel does it say "Believe Jesus is God."

The correct answer is Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah.

Now let's see what your answer is to Jesus:

Matthew 16
15“But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Your turn. Who do you say Jesus is?

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, I maintain the upper hand here because I can quote what the Bible says is required for salvation. You'll find nowhere, anywhere, in the gospel does it say "Believe Jesus is God."

The correct answer is Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah.

Now let's see what your answer is to Jesus:

Matthew 16
15“But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Your turn. Who do you say Jesus is?

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shown you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (Jn. 10:31–33).

 

[ButterflyJones]

Who in here thinks jesus saves everyone?

Who in here can show the scripture where it says Jesus death on the cross saved everyone on earth for all eternity? Whether they believe or not?

 

[ButterflyJones]

OSAS is false in your dogma, that is correct.

In the real plan of salvation OSAS is true.

You mistook me for someone else. I have never said eternal salvation is false dogma.

 

[HeIsHere]

Who in here can show the scripture where it says Jesus death on the cross saved everyone on earth for all eternity? Whether they believe or not?

No one has made this assertion, another straw man fallacy on your part.

 

[HeIsHere]

You mistook me for someone else. I have never said eternal salvation is false dogma.

Nope I was replying to you, the Calvinist view of OSAS is false.

 

[Runningman]

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shown you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (Jn. 10:31–33).

That's what the Pharisees claimed.

Jesus claimed otherwise and contradicted them in his response, which you conveniently left out:

John 10
34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

 

[ButterflyJones]

What I am trying to understand..... is why those schooled in this school of thought/dogma always, and I mean always come back

with the same ole tired, devoid of thought response.

Some thing must happen to the mind of people who adopt or are raised in this dogma.

It is truly disturbing and scary this "group mind think."

I agree. Universalism is often disguised by its advocates so to avoid criticism. Or, bypass some forums rules that prohibit the false teaching itself.

It is 3asier to get around that by insisting everyone for all time is saved by Jesus death on the cross. The mere identity of everyone or all meaning believer or unbeliever.

It cannot be sustained by scripture. Revelation and the pit of fire's existence in itself proves this.

Obstinacy of false dogma purveyors necessarily requires ignoring those scriptures that decimate the false teaching of Universalism by any other name.
And of course there are those who feel compelled to make sarcastic remarks in their effort. Which is a blessing. Because they demonstrate there are other passages they choose to ignore as well.

Blessings.