Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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No
But I can not make the bible contradict itself either
If Paul said that Abraham first believed, and THEN it was accounted to him for righteousness.
then I can not counter that by going to some other passage and contradicting what paul said
thats one of the proofs of the word of God and are we correctly interpreting the word.
If a belief in one passage contradicts a belief in another. one of our interpretations are in error
thats why we do not blindly listen to men, we study to shew ourselves approved.
But I can not make the bible contradict itself either
If Paul said that Abraham first believed, and THEN it was accounted to him for righteousness.
then I can not counter that by going to some other passage and contradicting what paul said
thats one of the proofs of the word of God and are we correctly interpreting the word.
If a belief in one passage contradicts a belief in another. one of our interpretations are in error
thats why we do not blindly listen to men, we study to shew ourselves approved.
I really struggle with your logic sometimes and your ability to focus on a single thought.
The will of God is made known in God's word as well as the things He does and shows us to do.
And it's poor form to suggest something of someone that you know they are not suggesting. If you would like to discuss ideas, discuss ideas. If you want to insuate things about me, at least have the courage of your convictions and level a claim plainly and defend it based on what I have written.
The will of God is made known in God's word as well as the things He does and shows us to do.
And it's poor form to suggest something of someone that you know they are not suggesting. If you would like to discuss ideas, discuss ideas. If you want to insuate things about me, at least have the courage of your convictions and level a claim plainly and defend it based on what I have written.
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lol, what do you think I am doing..
this is what we know..
It is the will of the father that whoever believes will live forever
It is his will that of whoever recieves him, to THEM he gave the power to become the sons of God
It is his will that as ABRAHAM Believed God. so if we BELIEVE God, God will credit to us as righteousness.
God desired Jerusalem to come to him, to receive him, to desire him
He did not force them however. so we can easily determine that it is his will, if they did what he said, he will bless them, if not, he will punish them which can come to this conclusion or thought based on Lev 26)
but we can not know the will of God in all things.. Jesus did not. who are we to say we can?
this is what we know..
It is the will of the father that whoever believes will live forever
It is his will that of whoever recieves him, to THEM he gave the power to become the sons of God
It is his will that as ABRAHAM Believed God. so if we BELIEVE God, God will credit to us as righteousness.
God desired Jerusalem to come to him, to receive him, to desire him
He did not force them however. so we can easily determine that it is his will, if they did what he said, he will bless them, if not, he will punish them which can come to this conclusion or thought based on Lev 26)
but we can not know the will of God in all things.. Jesus did not. who are we to say we can?
Again, in order for what you think to be correct logically, it would have to say "righteousness was reckoned to Abraham for his faith" but it doesn't say that. It says that "faith was reckoned to him for righteousness".
[Rom 4:9-10 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
see, there you go. You ignore the first few verses.
the context of vs 9 is the first 8 verses.
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
here we have IT (whatever you believe It is) was accounted why? Because Abraham Believed God
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Here we have work, as apposed to Abraham believing, called upping a debt, not counted as grace..
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Here we have in Black and white.. WHoever does not work BUT BELIEVES on his who justifies the ungodly (CHrist) HIS FAITH (Not Gods)is counted as righteousness (justified)
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
here we have the difference.
God does not impute sin to those who what? BELIEVE!!
then we come to your verse.
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
who's faith?
see verse 3 and verse 5. It is NOT GODS, it is the person who believes.
You have to remove the first 7 verses for your interpretation to stand
the context of vs 9 is the first 8 verses.
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
here we have IT (whatever you believe It is) was accounted why? Because Abraham Believed God
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Here we have work, as apposed to Abraham believing, called upping a debt, not counted as grace..
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Here we have in Black and white.. WHoever does not work BUT BELIEVES on his who justifies the ungodly (CHrist) HIS FAITH (Not Gods)is counted as righteousness (justified)
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
here we have the difference.
God does not impute sin to those who what? BELIEVE!!
then we come to your verse.
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
who's faith?
see verse 3 and verse 5. It is NOT GODS, it is the person who believes.
You have to remove the first 7 verses for your interpretation to stand
A couple of thoughts...
I agree with nearly all you have written. But where you put did not force I would put did not enable them to believe.
I understand why you believe as you do and am not trying to persuade you. I'm merely pointing out the difference that is the cause of this overly lengthy debate.
I never said I know the complete will of God. I wasn't there when He decided. Even had I such a great place of honor, I doubt I have the ability to remember it all. The only reason I brought it up was to make a distinction between will and want.
I agree with nearly all you have written. But where you put did not force I would put did not enable them to believe.
I understand why you believe as you do and am not trying to persuade you. I'm merely pointing out the difference that is the cause of this overly lengthy debate.
I never said I know the complete will of God. I wasn't there when He decided. Even had I such a great place of honor, I doubt I have the ability to remember it all. The only reason I brought it up was to make a distinction between will and want.
Christ's faith. His faith was imputed to Abraham.
Only Christ's faith is righteous, of ourselves, ours is not.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Only Christ's faith is righteous, of ourselves, ours is not.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
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Read the verse.
when was IT imputed to abraham?
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God,
Did it say God believed God?
Or did it say ABRAHAM believed God?
when was IT imputed to abraham?
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God,
Did it say God believed God?
Or did it say ABRAHAM believed God?
What amazes me is we both believe the same
we are saved by Grace through faith
We both believe faith is given to us from God
We both believe God draws us
the ONLY thing that separates us is you think your faith came AFTER you were born aain, I think it was BEFORE we were born again.
when we get to heaven, I am sure God will not judge us on this, since we both trusted him (although @rogerg is worrying me saying it was Gods faith not ours)
we are saved by Grace through faith
We both believe faith is given to us from God
We both believe God draws us
the ONLY thing that separates us is you think your faith came AFTER you were born aain, I think it was BEFORE we were born again.
when we get to heaven, I am sure God will not judge us on this, since we both trusted him (although @rogerg is worrying me saying it was Gods faith not ours)
I think his argument is a little more nuanced. It is Jesus faith that saves in that He trusted God on our behalf and so saving faith must be reckoned or imputed from His account to ours. Once it is, our faith is enabled of God. One is a positional change. One is experiential.
The only difference is that you believe fallen man is capable and he would say it is enabled. Hence, for you and many others,it is reasonable that God would act after faith. From the opposite side, it is only reasonable if God works beforehand.
Since there is no requirement to understand the outworkings of salvation to be saved, we can all go home at the end of the day brothers and sisters.
The only difference is that you believe fallen man is capable and he would say it is enabled. Hence, for you and many others,it is reasonable that God would act after faith. From the opposite side, it is only reasonable if God works beforehand.
Since there is no requirement to understand the outworkings of salvation to be saved, we can all go home at the end of the day brothers and sisters.
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This makes utterly no sense whatsoever. And goes completely against what John and Paul said.
Like I tried to explain to roger, when you interpret the word and it contradicts itself. You need to change your believe in the one or more points causing the contradiction.
When Jon said it is those who recieve him that God makes his children. We need to believe John
When paul said it is when abraham believed God, that IT (whatever you think it was) was accounted to him as righteousness..And that we too. When we believe God, It (whatever we believe it is) will be accounted to us too.
well we must take Paul at his word, being inspired by God.
And hence why the argument persists.
And will most likely never be resolved.
Because we both read the word and see two different things.
Again my friend, Me placing my faith in the work of someone else is not me saving myself. it is my acknowledging I can not save myself. Or I would trust in myself (like the workers for do)
Like I tried to explain to roger, when you interpret the word and it contradicts itself. You need to change your believe in the one or more points causing the contradiction.
When Jon said it is those who recieve him that God makes his children. We need to believe John
When paul said it is when abraham believed God, that IT (whatever you think it was) was accounted to him as righteousness..And that we too. When we believe God, It (whatever we believe it is) will be accounted to us too.
well we must take Paul at his word, being inspired by God.
And hence why the argument persists.
And will most likely never be resolved.
Because we both read the word and see two different things.
Again my friend, Me placing my faith in the work of someone else is not me saving myself. it is my acknowledging I can not save myself. Or I would trust in myself (like the workers for do)