Whom Did Christ Die For?

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Bob-Carabbio

Well-known member
Jun 24, 2020
1,603
804
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The Father, the Son, and the Holy Sprit are always in perfect accord. So since the Son and the Spirit draw ALL MEN to Christ, it follows that the Father does the same. It is not the Father alone, but the Godhead which draws all men to Christ through the Gospel, with the Holy Spirit empowering the Gospel.
Hair splitting.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,137
5,720
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Yeah, I already told you that. God hated more than one individual, is a nation comprised of more than one individual ?
are you familiar with Edom in Bible prophecy ? And the story of the edomites in kings and chronicles ? God knew esau from the womb

“And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days:

and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭35:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭36:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.

…And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.

Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.

And these are the generations of Esau the father of the Edomites in mount Seir:

…. these be the dukes of Edom, according to their habitations in the land of their possession: he is Esau the father of the Edomites.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭36:1-2, 6, 8-9, 43‬ ‭

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:14, 16-17‬ ‭

God understood who esau was and who his people would be it wasn’t that he arbitrarily hated him

“And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭25:14‬ ‭

There’s a lot to what I’m trying to say not very well but esau is the root of edom there ere reasons God favored and chose Jacob

Concerning Edom, thus saith the LORD of hosts; Is wisdom no more in Teman? is counsel perished from the prudent? is their wisdom vanished? Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him. But I have made Esau bare, I have uncovered his secret places, and he shall not be able to hide himself: his seed is spoiled, and his brethren, and his neighbours, and he is not.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭49:7-8, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭49:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


If you learn about esau , edom the edomites, it will make more sense in that Edoms fate later became an example of jerusalems fate


God always understands who someone is and what they have in their heart to do later even from the womb he knew Jacob and Esau and was speaking the end from the beginning Esau’s line would be destroyed in the end by his wrath and jacobs line for a time was blessed by his peace

He speaks it in pat tense “ Jacob I loved esau I hated “ because he’s speaking the end before the beginning

jacob I will bless and choose

esau will reject me and receive wrath

jacob was loved and esau hated
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,333
557
113
are you familiar with Edom in Bible prophecy ? And the story of the edomites in kings and chronicles ? God knew esau from the womb

“And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days:

and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭35:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭36:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.

…And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.

Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.

And these are the generations of Esau the father of the Edomites in mount Seir:

…. these be the dukes of Edom, according to their habitations in the land of their possession: he is Esau the father of the Edomites.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭36:1-2, 6, 8-9, 43‬ ‭

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:14, 16-17‬ ‭

God understood who esau was and who his people would be it wasn’t that he arbitrarily hated him

“And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭25:14‬ ‭

There’s a lot to what I’m trying to say not very well but esau is the root of edom there ere reasons God favored and chose Jacob

Concerning Edom, thus saith the LORD of hosts; Is wisdom no more in Teman? is counsel perished from the prudent? is their wisdom vanished? Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him. But I have made Esau bare, I have uncovered his secret places, and he shall not be able to hide himself: his seed is spoiled, and his brethren, and his neighbours, and he is not.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭49:7-8, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭49:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


If you learn about esau , edom the edomites, it will make more sense in that Edoms fate later became an example of jerusalems fate


God always understands who someone is and what they have in their heart to do later even from the womb he knew Jacob and Esau and was speaking the end from the beginning Esau’s line would be destroyed in the end by his wrath and jacobs line for a time was blessed by his peace

He speaks it in pat tense “ Jacob I loved esau I hated “ because he’s speaking the end before the beginning

jacob I will bless and choose

esau will reject me and receive wrath

jacob was loved and esau hated
Friend, God doesnt love everyone, Christ didnt die for everyone. God loved only His Elect, and Christ died only for the same, and The Spirit regenerates the same. If we preach or teach that Christ died for everyone, we do lie !
 

Bruce_Leiter

Active member
Feb 17, 2023
427
192
43
Eklektos, or eklektoi (Greek plural of “elect”) Romans 8:33.

Romans 8
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
More Than Conquerors
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.
 

montana123

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2021
856
286
63
So this has become the question in another thread. Did Christ die for only the elect or die He die for all. Here are the two views;


1. Limited atonement, sometimes called particular redemption, is based on the doctrine of election or predestination.

Since only the elect of God will be saved, the reasoning goes, Jesus must have died only for them. Otherwise, Jesus’ death “failed” those who are not elect. If Jesus died for everyone, then hell will be full of people for whom Jesus died—was His atonement insufficient? If Jesus died only for the elect, then His atonement perfectly accomplished its goal. Every person for whom Jesus died will be in heaven.




2. Unlimited atonement, on the other hand, says that Jesus died for everyone but that only those who respond in faith will reap the benefits of His sacrifice. In other words, Jesus’ death was sufficient for all, but only effectual for some (those who have faith). If Jesus did not die for everyone, the reasoning goes, then the offer of salvation is empty, because the non-elect cannot be saved.


I find this a very interesting question. I am digging deeper to fully explain what I believe and why. Does anyone else care to take a crack at it. Please use Scripture in your answer where possible.
The Bible says the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

The prophets blood was shed from the foundation of the world.

And all the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Although they were future events they were still considered as being in the beginning.

Because God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
All things were created by Him and without Him nothing was created that was created.

Which means in the beginning God had the plan to come in the future in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything He created for Jesus is the reason creation is successful to judge angels and people, and to give salvation.

Which the Bible says Jesus is the beginning of creation even though He was not born until 4000 years later.

So I believe predestination means God had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world so it is the same as if the saints have salvation in the beginning, but this salvation is to whoever wants this salvation.

But while we have a choice in our salvation we would of not accepted the truth if God did not intervene in our life for the flesh will not accept the truth for there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh.

We have to have a choice in accepting salvation because God's kingdom is true love, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice.

If you program your computer to say I love you does your computer really love you, and if you program your computer to say I hate you will you get mad and smash the computer.

If God did not choose some people to have salvation without their choice then why is He mad at them.

And God is no respecter of persons, and what makes you to differ from another person, and there no difference between a Jew and a Gentile, and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and there is none that does good, no, not one, and if you break the least of the law you broke it all.

So what criteria would God choose some people, and not other people when they are all equal in His eyes.

Many are called but few are chosen.

Not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

No person says Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work in their life to get them to the truth, and if they get to the door of truth they have to decide to go through it for God's kingdom is true love, but they would of not got to the door of truth if God did not intervene in their life.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God does not choose who will be saved, and not saved without their choice because He wants all people to be saved.

It is a lack of understanding the scriptures to believe we do not have a choice in our salvation.

But it could be that some people want to believe that so they can engage in sin without fear, and can be lazy living for the kingdom of God with a no pressure lifestyle, and no worries.

The Bible says some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

They do not allow the Spirit to lead them but they want to live in sin and believe they are right with God.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,135
29,451
113
Friend, God doesnt love everyone, Christ didnt die for everyone. God loved only His Elect, and Christ died only for the same,
and The Spirit regenerates the same. If we preach or teach that Christ died for everyone, we do lie !
He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

Bruce_Leiter

Active member
Feb 17, 2023
427
192
43
The big question about that passage is the meaning of the word "foreknew." Some people assume they know the meaning. They think it means "know about" ahead of time. That is, the people whom God knew ahead of time decided to accept Jesus and then God chose to know them. However, we must define words the way the Bible defines them, since the Bible is God's inspired Word. Therefore, a word study of the word "know" between individuals shows that its synonym is "love." That is, God "fore-loved" true believers. The KJV uses the word in this sense, "Adam knew Eve," and the result was a baby. It's obvious that any sexual meaning for God's knowledge of us would be false, but it does carry the idea of intimate, personal foreknowledge for his own.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
^ Another word I find interesting: "fore-hoped [G4276]" Eph1:12 [perfect participle]


[quoting from BibleHub]

STRONGS NT 4276: προελπίζω

προελπίζω: perfect participle accusative plural προηλπικότας; to hope before: ἐν τίνι, to repose hope in a person or thing before the event confirms it, Ephesians 1:12. (Posidipp. quoted in Athen. 9, p. 377{c}, Dexippus (circa ), Gregory of Nyssa).

[end quoting; bold mine]




____________

... of course, not talking about "fore-hoped" BEFORE 'TIME' (as though somehow humans EXISTED 'before time'... No.) ;)
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
Friend, God doesnt love everyone, Christ didnt die for everyone. God loved only His Elect, and Christ died only for the same, and The Spirit regenerates the same. If we preach or teach that Christ died for everyone, we do lie !
It simply doesn’t get any more blasphemous than the above demonic garbage being puked out from the heretic quoted above.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,333
557
113
It simply doesn’t get any more blasphemous than the above demonic garbage being puked out from the heretic quoted above.
Whats garbage and blasphemous are the lies that God loves everybody and Christ died for everyone, yeah even the damned !
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,781
2,068
113
The Bible says the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

The prophets blood was shed from the foundation of the world.

And all the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Although they were future events they were still considered as being in the beginning.

Because God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
All things were created by Him and without Him nothing was created that was created.

Which means in the beginning God had the plan to come in the future in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything He created for Jesus is the reason creation is successful to judge angels and people, and to give salvation.

Which the Bible says Jesus is the beginning of creation even though He was not born until 4000 years later.

So I believe predestination means God had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world so it is the same as if the saints have salvation in the beginning, but this salvation is to whoever wants this salvation.

But while we have a choice in our salvation we would of not accepted the truth if God did not intervene in our life for the flesh will not accept the truth for there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh.

We have to have a choice in accepting salvation because God's kingdom is true love, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice.

If you program your computer to say I love you does your computer really love you, and if you program your computer to say I hate you will you get mad and smash the computer.

If God did not choose some people to have salvation without their choice then why is He mad at them.

And God is no respecter of persons, and what makes you to differ from another person, and there no difference between a Jew and a Gentile, and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and there is none that does good, no, not one, and if you break the least of the law you broke it all.

So what criteria would God choose some people, and not other people when they are all equal in His eyes.

Many are called but few are chosen.

Not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

No person says Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work in their life to get them to the truth, and if they get to the door of truth they have to decide to go through it for God's kingdom is true love, but they would of not got to the door of truth if God did not intervene in their life.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God does not choose who will be saved, and not saved without their choice because He wants all people to be saved.

It is a lack of understanding the scriptures to believe we do not have a choice in our salvation.

But it could be that some people want to believe that so they can engage in sin without fear, and can be lazy living for the kingdom of God with a no pressure lifestyle, and no worries.

The Bible says some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

They do not allow the Spirit to lead them but they want to live in sin and believe they are right with God.

Absolutely agree, and thank you for taking the time to explain, using Scripture. Very well said!
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,781
2,068
113
Whats garbage and blasphemous are the lies that God loves everybody and Christ died for everyone, yeah even the damned !

Well, your problem is a lot bigger than anyone here, because that is what the Word says. Read the prodigal son.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,135
29,451
113
Whats garbage and blasphemous are the lies that God loves everybody and Christ died for everyone, yeah even the damned !
God's love is unconditional. That does not mean that salvation is also. It seems you conflate the two.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
372
83
Your logic fails in the light of God's plan and purpose.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16).

“Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

Oh I know world does not really mean world.
The verse you quoted confirms what I said.