Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

Everlasting-Grace · Feb 28, 2023

You was chatting about me my friend

What is with you people that think you do no wrong?

Everytime I have any kind of conversation with a calvinist this is how it ends.. Blame shifting. Attacking a persons character. And bearing false witness.

what is wrong that you can not just sit and actually have a discussion without all the …..

Everlasting-Grace · Feb 28, 2023

ButterflyJones said:

Yet you have no rebutt le. I am just supposed to take your word that I misunderstood paul

lol

this makes me laugh my freind.. I have to go to bible study, I will look to see how you responded when I get back.

God bless

Nehemiah6 · Feb 28, 2023

ButterflyJones said:

This sounds like obfuscation. There is no conflict between the sovereignty of God and free will, since it is God who gave man free will. And it is implied in Genesis 2:16,17: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now had Adam been created a robotic creature, the question of disobeying God's command would not even have come up. Adam would have been programmed to always be obedient to God. After Adam disobeyed God, mankind continued to have free will. Thus Cain became a wicked man and Abel became a righteous man. Therefore we have this in Scripture "Choose you this day whom you will serve..."

ButterflyJones · Feb 28, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

I think if we are in error of understanding the import of God's Dominion over and within his creation, we will then misunderstand all of God's characteristics.

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/g...se-god-is-sovereign-really-mean-11555729.html

"God is above all things and before all things. He is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. He is immortal, and He is present everywhere so that everyone can know Him (Revelation 21:6).
God created all things and holds all things together, both in heaven and on earth, both visible and invisible (Colossians 1:16).
God knows all things past, present, and future. There is no limit to His knowledge, for God knows everything completely before it even happens (Romans 11:33).
God can do all things and accomplish all things. Nothing is too difficult for Him, and He orchestrates and determines everything that is going to happen in your life, in my life, in America, and throughout the world. Whatever He wants to do in the universe, He does, for nothing is impossible with Him (Jeremiah 32:17).
God is in control of all things and rules over all things. He has power and authority over nature, earthly kings, history, angels, and demons. Even Satan himself has to ask God’s permission before he can act (Psalm 103:19).

That’s what being sovereign means. It means being the ultimate source of all power, authority, and everything that exists. Only God can make those claims; therefore, it’s God’s sovereignty that makes Him superior to all other gods and makes Him, and Him alone, worthy of worship."

ButterflyJones · Feb 28, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

I have responded. Let me help you understand where you've made your mistake there.

Denying I rebutted your error does not make your error to become correct.

Rather, what you've accomplished is revealing you are unaware of the whole of the Apostle Paul's ministry. Again.

You are unaware or willfully ignore his epistle in 1st Corinthians 2.
In particular as well, verse 14.

Whereas your perspective posits the idea that, by your ongoing argument against Paul's observations in that chapter and verse 14 in particular, that Paul contradicts himself when you attempt to insist Paul does not hold to his teachings there in chapter 2 in his other letters.

This of course is error and false.

If you are able to adjust your behavior and participate with intellectual honesty in future posts we can continue this discussion. If opposed, we shall part in peace.

awelight · Feb 28, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

If you would like to reengage in a meaningful conversation... I am fine with that. So let's start with your apparent misunderstanding of what free will is and how it applies to man.

Explain free will as you understand it.

awelight · Feb 28, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

This sounds like obfuscation. There is no conflict between the sovereignty of God and free will, since it is God who gave man free will. And it is implied in Genesis 2:16,17: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now had Adam been created a robotic creature, the question of disobeying God's command would not even have come up. Adam would have been programmed to always be obedient to God. After Adam disobeyed God, mankind continued to have free will. Thus Cain became a wicked man and Abel became a righteous man. Therefore we have this in Scripture "Choose you this day whom you will serve..."

You are using an example of Adam before the fall. What about man's will after the fall?

Magenta · Feb 28, 2023

awelight said:

Most agree it is an ability to choose. Who gets to choose what and when (and how!) is where the disagreement seems to be.

One side adheres to, man is a slave to sin and cannot in his natural self choose to submit to God.

Another says God over rides free will and causes man to be born again before he ever chooses.

Then there are those who say God works in people which enables them to choose.

ButterflyJones · Feb 28, 2023

Everlasting-Grace said:

God's Dominion, Sovereignty, and Will, are what give rise to the other traits you name.

awelight · Feb 28, 2023

Magenta said:

I would agree with you there. Along with the problem of the word "free". Mankind has a will to be sure.

Yes, the real problem is in the order of events, when it comes to Salvation. God moved first or did man? If God moves first, then the Glory of our Salvation is His. If man moved first, then does not man have the right to glory in himself?

Magenta · Feb 28, 2023

awelight said:

God is the Primal Cause first foremost and always regardless of what man does.

I don't even really like the term free will -

(I do agree we make choices.)

^ Since man's will is constrained by too many factors to truly be considered "free."

reneweddaybyday · Feb 28, 2023

awelight said:

What God told Cain:

Genesis 4:

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Sadly, Cain chose to do "not well".
.

awelight · Feb 28, 2023

Magenta said:

That's a truly loveable statement you opened with and I agree completely with your understanding of our so-called free will. It does not exist in this context. Only God has a free will but I am not sure that His will can truly be called free. His own attributes, which are holy, constrains Him from being totally free. For instance, He cannot will to do that which is unrighteous or unjust, thus, violating His own nature.

If one understands that God is the primal cause, then they should easily see the need for the new birth before one believes. The rational idea behind this, is that Scripture says we are enslaved to sin, indeed we love sin and one who is enslaved to sin will not choose that which is Holy because it is against their nature.

Nehemiah6 · Feb 28, 2023

awelight said:

Same difference. You can go right through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Because God had given mankind free will, He holds each one accountable. Romans chapters 1-3 sums it all up.

Magenta · Feb 28, 2023

awelight said:

Thank you. My issue with being born again before believing is that then means people are saved apart from faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ. What of heart circumcision? Some say we are regenerated then also, but, could not circumcision of the heart precede both coming to believe and regeneration? Making possible our ability to repent, choose rightly, and submit to God by believing the gospel, at which time we are born again and then (simultaneously) sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Unless, of course, born again does not equal salvation. But how can that be?

awelight · Feb 28, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

That's a very good point. As in the Indiana Jones movie, he chose poorly.

The emphasis of what I am getting at, is in the word "free" in front of will. Cain had a will but it could not be said to be a free will. Free will is a humanistic creation that never existed - according to Scripture. Before the fall, Adam had a will that was constrained by God's authority. After the fall, mankind's will has been constrained by our nature. That nature is a sinful one.

Additionally, since we do not have authority over all things, that is the realm of God, mankind is constrained by his lack of power to accomplish what he might will or desire.

cv5 · Feb 28, 2023

ButterflyJones said:

I never said that. Nor do I believe it. In fact I think most Christians know better.

cv5 · Feb 28, 2023

Magenta said:

Not to mention the grievous limitations of the flesh given the abysmal state of blindness, deafness and leprosy.

awelight · Feb 28, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

If you are following along on this thread, the issue here is the word "free" in front of the word "will".

There are many constraints upon man's will - to many to call it "free". After Adam's fall, man's will, according to Scripture, is governed by his enslavement and love of sin. Additionally, mankind does not possess the ability, the power or authority, to have a free will. Therefore, mankind's will reflects his nature.

cv5 · Feb 28, 2023

awelight said:

Regardless of our inevitably prosaic view of things, God must inhabit the domain, the parameter space where He enjoys the MAXIMUM degrees of freedom, including the will. Which is why nothing is too hard for God.

Personally, I think that this perfect freedom BEGINS with perfect holiness and justice. Anything less makes then a person becomes a enslaved and prisoner. Sin/disobedience/rebellion brings about the removal of freedoms, rights, privileges. The more sin, the more degrees of freedom are lost, the darker the prison and worse the state of the prisoner.

Jhn 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

Psa 102:20
To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;

Isa 52:2
Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

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