Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

[awelight]

God did move first.

we both agree

we even agree with the end result

it is in the middle where we are 180 degrees out

Then do you believe that man is the one who moves first in his personal salvation?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I certainly agree with the later half of your post.

As to the point I was making about Adam not having the authority, I was referring not to his choice but to the fact, that he could not will the punishment out of existence. God was the Sovereign authority.

Non of us can WILL the punishment out of existence. We all must be like the tax collector and call out to God for his mercy..because we can not save ourselves.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Then do you believe that man is the one who moves first in his personal salvation?

I am confused

I said God moved first

then you ask me if I believe that man moved first?

can you explain why you would ask me such a question when i stated otherwise?

 

[oyster67]

I was referring not to his choice but to the fact, that he could not will the punishment out of existence.

Come again??????... Are you saying that we lack free will just because we do not possess Godlike sovereignty?

 

[awelight]

who’s defenition? Yours? No I do not agree with it



I chose to act out of necessity or fate all the time. When I chose right. I am blessed. When i chose wrong, I suffer.

not sure where you got this defenition.



I do not get my bible knowledge from a dictionary.

I get it from the word.

God said chose this day who you will serve. Free will

God said of this tree you will never eat - free will

God said he wanted to gather Jerusalem as a city together and me a mother to them, but they were unwilling, free will

God said he sent his son, that whoever believes will never die, but live forever. Free will

I can go on and on and on

There you go again, completely ignoring the points I made in 1. and 2. Can't have a conversation like this. You are making it pointless.

The definition was from the Oxford Dictionary.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

There you go again, completely ignoring the points I made in 1. and 2. Can't have a conversation like this. You are making it pointless.

The definition was from the Oxford Dictionary.

I did not ignore anything my friend. I just do not agree with your points, and responded as to why.

and I also showed I did not agree with the dictionary defenition also..

 

[awelight]

Come again??????... Are you saying that we lack free will just because we do not possess Godlike sovereignty?

See post # 237.

 

[oyster67]

Then do you believe that man is the one who moves first in his personal salvation?

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and now it is our move to decide what we will do with Jesus.

 

[awelight]

I am confused

I said God moved first

then you ask me if I believe that man moved first?

can you explain why you would ask me such a question when i stated otherwise?

You said it was in the middle that we don't agree. Perhaps you should define the middle.

 

[awelight]

I did not ignore anything my friend. I just do not agree with your points, and responded as to why.

and I also showed I did not agree with the dictionary defenition also..

Then I am asking you, to give your reason for disagreement. Not just some blanket statement. How else can I determine where we part company?

For your convenience - here it is again:

This is the common definition in most dictionaries. It varies from the philosophical definition slightly. However, the two major points here are: 1) To be free of the constraint of necessity. It's pretty easy to see that our will won't fit that description. Our will is influenced by necessity. By necessity, because we must carry out certain choices in order to survive. Additionally, our choices are limited by our means. In Scripture, our choices are limited by our fallen nature. We love sin. We are slaves of sin. Therefore, our will is constrained by our nature, our authority and our means. 2) Whether we are constrained by "fate" is arguable.

Therefore, man has a will - he may chose - but it is not free. It is constrained.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You said it was in the middle that we don't agree. Perhaps you should define the middle.

Well if I said it is God that moves first. It is not that

So again, why did you ask if I thought it was man who moved first?

I am not sure what the middle has to do with yu completely ignoring what I said, then asking as if I did not say it.

the middle is how we get from the point God moves to the point when we are saved..

 

[awelight]

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and now it is our move to decide what we will do with Jesus.

That sir is not an answer. it is a Bible verse, of which gives no answer to the question posed.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Then I am asking you, to give your reason for disagreement. Not just some blanket statement. How else can I determine where we part company?

For your convenience - here it is again:

This is the common definition in most dictionaries. It varies from the philosophical definition slightly. However, the two major points here are: 1) To be free of the constraint of necessity. It's pretty easy to see that our will won't fit that description. Our will is influenced by necessity. By necessity, because we must carry out certain choices in order to survive. Additionally, our choices are limited by our means. In Scripture, our choices are limited by our fallen nature. We love sin. We are slaves of sin. Therefore, our will is constrained by our nature, our authority and our means. 2) Whether we are constrained by "fate" is arguable.

Therefore, man has a will - he may chose - but it is not free. It is constrained.

Do you read anything i write.

I did answer

I chose to act out of necessity or fate all the time. When I chose right. I am blessed. When i chose wrong, I suffer.

not sure where you got this defenition.



I do not get my bible knowledge from a dictionary.

I get it from the word.

God said chose this day who you will serve. Free will

God said of this tree you will never eat - free will

God said he wanted to gather Jerusalem as a city together and me a mother to them, but they were unwilling, free will

God said he sent his son, that whoever believes will never die, but live forever. Free will

I can go on and on and on

 

[awelight]

Well if I said it is God that moves first. It is not that

So again, why did you ask if I thought it was man who moved first?

I am not sure what the middle has to do with yu completely ignoring what I said, then asking as if I did not say it.

the middle is how we get from the point God moves to the point when we are saved..

Could you be a little more specific. Your answered the middle question but I can't tell where you are in Biblical timing.

Maybe I should ask you, where do you see God moving first and in what way?

 

[awelight]

Do you read anything i write.

I did answer

No you did not.

We are discussing whether our will should be called "free".

My two points were proof it should not. How then do you counter that argument specifically.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No you did not.

We are discussing whether our will should be called "free".

My two points were proof it should not. How then do you counter that argument specifically.

And I showed you why I called my will free multiple times I even countered the defenition you gave by saying I act freely out of necessity or fate all the time, and I am either blessed by those choices or I sufffer because of them

I did not demand you agree with me, You do not that is obvious

It does not mean I did not answer your question.

You have to get off the mindset that because someone disagrees with you. Does nt mean they have not answered you or listened to you.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Could you be a little more specific. Your answered the middle question but I can't tell where you are in Biblical timing.

Maybe I should ask you, where do you see God moving first and in what way?

God moves first in many ways..

the word
the holy spirit
his creation (romans 1)
people he has put in my life

I can not just start with one things, it was many things..

 

[HeIsHere]

Okay. So you do not agree with the definition of free will:

Free will is defined as: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

This is the common definition in most dictionaries. It varies from the philosophical definition slightly. However, the two major points here are: 1) To be free of the constraint of necessity. It's pretty easy to see that our will won't fit that description. Our will is influenced by necessity. By necessity, because we must carry out certain choices in order to survive. Additionally, our choices are limited by our means. In Scripture, our choices are limited by our fallen nature. We love sin. We are slaves of sin. Therefore, our will is constrained by our nature, our authority and our means. 2) Whether we are constrained by "fate" is arguable.

Therefore, man has a will - he may chose - but it is not free. It is constrained.

Rather simplistic really, the freedom of the individual will varies from moment to moment, situation to situation, and from person to person.

If one is able to state "I could have chosen and done otherwise" they had freedom of will in that situation.

That aside, we do know that scriptures teaches people are capable of being persuaded of the truth of the Gospel.

 

[oyster67]

That sir is not an answer. it is a Bible verse, of which gives no answer to the question posed.

That sir is the answer. It is a Bible verse, which gives the answer to the question posed.

 

[Magenta]

Maybe I should ask you, where do you see God moving first and in what way?

This is where someone needs to say that God lets us know that we are loved and forgiven

I experienced this in a very profound way when I was at or nearing one of the lowest points of my
life, feeling so broken and like such a failure and pretty hopeless and in a lot of emotional pain.

Although I did not believe in that God at the time, so it is one of those things that are a bit paradoxical.

I had gone to a neighbourhood church around Passover at the end of my marriage because they
were showing a movie based on the gospel of Luke, and I was curious to know Who Jesus was.

I did not leave with understanding of Who Jesus was(/is), but I did leave with the knowledge
that God loved me and forgave me even when I could not love or forgive myself, and that was
something I treasured, even as I thought, it's too bad it had to happen in a church -

Along with the experience of His love and forgiveness being imparted to me was also the knowledge that
He knew and understood all of how I had ended up where I was, and that I was undeserving of His love.

Not in a way that was shaming or to make me feel guilty. Just a knowing that I truly was unworthy.

I thought a lot about Jesus right after that, but it was many more years before I came to believe.