Salvation is for the Whole World

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ForestGreenCook

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If you won't mind my two cents, I can't see how this world could possibly be the one that God "so loved". If there is truly only one world which God loves, but yet, promised to destroy it, that would mean either that God is unable to save that which He loves, or to destroy that which He hates - which would be a logical impossibility. So, two worlds must be in view - one to be destroyed and one to be eternal.
That is the only way all verses can harmonize.
If God instructs us not to love this world, then neither does He.

[1Jo 2:15-17 KJV]
15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

That is the only way that I understand it to make the scriptures to harmonize
 

ForestGreenCook

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There are those who speak against God destroying anything, almost
as if He cannot do it, or as if it somehow besmirches His character to
even suggest that He can and will do it, just as Scripture teaches.

I am pretty simple minded at age 88, so, could you expound upon your thoughts to bring a clearer picture to my mind?
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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I am pretty simple minded at age 88, so, could you expound upon your thoughts to bring a clearer picture to my mind?
Dear friend... First of all, I want you to know that in the last days men will laugh at the truth.
They will follow their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “He promised to come again. Where
is He? Since our early fathers died, everything is the same from the beginning of the world.”
5 But they want to forget that God spoke and the heavens were made long ago. The earth
was made out of water and water was all around it. 6 Long ago the earth was covered with
water and it was destroyed. 7 But the heaven we see now and the earth we live on now have
been kept by His word. They will be kept until they are to be destroyed by fire. They will be
kept until the day men stand before God and sinners will be destroyed. from 2 Peter 3.
 

ForestGreenCook

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“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

believing the gospel is how a child of God is born

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Those who accept the gospel can be saved from the condemnation upon all creation , and become the children of God

they have to hear and believe to become by faith

No one is already his child or they wouldn’t have to be born again lol. The fospem is sent to everyone because it’s what hey need to believe to be a child of God

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Need to hear and accept that a

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

need to hear and believe this to know Gods will for his children

Need to hear this if we want to be Gods children

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

need to also hear all the things he says about what will happen if we don’t repent hats something Gods children know and believe that’s why e son is teaching it


Everything the son of God says is for the children of God the children of God are those who believe in Jesus Christ the son of God presented to all the world in the Gospel all who believe the real gospel of Jesus Christ , are the children of God

From his birth of a virgin to his baptism and anointing to preach the truth of Gods word forever , his miracles , his mercy and relationship with sinners who were broken and contrite , his kj Kerry and teachings about God and his kingdom and us , his suffering and death , his resurrection and ascention to the throne

the gospel of Matthew is one eye witness of the gospel , the gospel of mark another witness , gospel of Luke another and gospel of John another witness

If we believe the gospel we are born a child of God if we refuse to believe the gospel we remain a child of disobedience and object of wrath

We need salvation because everyone is already condemned by their sins of you’ve ever sinned

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can now be saved through repentance and remission of those sins if we accept the true gospel God sent to save us

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

as long as we say “ I can’t choose to repent and believe what God has declared will save my soul “ its binding us from making a choice to believe and saved

Life and death is before everyone because the gospel is in the world before everyone some will hear and believe others won’t but they are free to choose either

John 1:12-13 - The question: Who were the many as received him? Answer: Those who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Col 1:15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by Him, and for Him.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's essence from which all things exist. Christ is the first living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His essence (the Holy Spirit).
I think the term first-born is referring to Christ as the God-man - the firs of many brethren that were reconciled to the Father, but not because He was created as God.

[Rom 8:29 KJV] 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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These scriptures explain eternal heaven, and cannot be the world in the scriptures that I gave you that hates God.

There is a world of believers that God loves as described in John 3:16, and then, there is a world that hates God. The world that God loves is in this world, but not of this world. God does not love the world that hates him, and only chastens those of the world that he so loves.
Sorry, not sure I entirely understand that. But I can't see how this world can be the one that He loves if He is going to destroy it. Since there are two spoken of in the Bible, the eternal one must therefore be the one of His love. We can know this because the one to come, as we are told, is the one Christ will reign in. Only those saved (the elect) will reside there with Him.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Col 1:15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by Him, and for Him.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's essence from which all things exist. Christ is the first living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His essence (the Holy Spirit).
Sorry, should have also included these in my prior reply to you:

[Col 1:15, 18 KJV]
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: ...
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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John 1:12-13 - The question: Answer: Those who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
“Who were the many as received him?”

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( power to become sons of God )

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-41‬ ‭
 
Dec 30, 2020
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It seems you are taking an English translation as literal, when the Greek and idiomatic phrases often mean something quite close, but not exactly as it’s stated in the English.
How else are you translating " the first-born of all creation" ? If a being is born, that would mean that there was a time before he was born.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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How else are you translating " the first-born of all creation" ? If a being is born, that would mean that there was a time before he was born.
[Col 1:18 NIV] 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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How else are you translating " the first-born of all creation" ? If a being is born, that would mean that there was a time before he was born.
A particularly important text for understanding this phrase is Psalm 89:27: “I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.” This verse appears in a section of the psalm speaking of Yahweh’s covenant with David. It is perfectly clear from the biblical accounts of David that he was not physically the firstborn of his family. In fact, he was the youngest of his brothers. This demonstrates that the term “firstborn” may be used in a figurative manner.

Note that Jesus is called the firstborn, not the first-created. The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child. firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.

Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).

Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the firstborn of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

Thus, the phrase "firstborn of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!
 
Dec 30, 2020
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I think the term first-born is referring to Christ as the God-man - the firs of many brethren that were reconciled to the Father, but not because He was created as God.

[Rom 8:29 KJV] 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
You are correct. He is the firstborn among many brethren, but Col 1: 15-16 says that He is also the firstborn of all creation both in heaven and on earth (not just humans). A father exists before the son is born.
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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You are correct. He is the firstborn among many brethren, but Col 1: 15-16 says that He is also the firstborn of all creation both in heaven and on earth (not just humans). A father exists before the son is born.
Are you familiar with the term idiom?
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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You are correct. He is the firstborn among many brethren, but Col 1: 15-16 says that He is also the firstborn of all creation both in heaven and on earth (not just humans). A father exists before the son is born.
Do you think that the God the Son was created/born? Jesus Christ, to satisfy His role as Saviour, became flesh and by His death and resurrection thereby became the firstborn of the dead. He was the first to be reborn but, as far as I know, only on the behalf of "humans". The reason for coming to this world was to reconcile man to God, but only man.
In reading Col 1 15:16 I don't find it to be saying that He was the firstborn "for all creation", but instead, "over all creation" - meaning that He became the Lord of the creation, not its Saviour. That, I believe, is an important distinction.
If the Son was brought into existence and was not always existing (as I understand you to be saying), it would then have to mean that Christ is not God because He would have been created, however, a created being cannot be God because God by definition, is eternal.

[Col 1:18 NIV] 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

[Col 1:15 NIV] 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Dear friend... First of all, I want you to know that in the last days men will laugh at the truth.
They will follow their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “He promised to come again. Where
is He? Since our early fathers died, everything is the same from the beginning of the world.”
5 But they want to forget that God spoke and the heavens were made long ago. The earth
was made out of water and water was all around it. 6 Long ago the earth was covered with
water and it was destroyed. 7 But the heaven we see now and the earth we live on now have
been kept by His word. They will be kept until they are to be destroyed by fire. They will be
kept until the day men stand before God and sinners will be destroyed. from 2 Peter 3.
Thank you for the information.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Sorry, not sure I entirely understand that. But I can't see how this world can be the one that He loves if He is going to destroy it. Since there are two spoken of in the Bible, the eternal one must therefore be the one of His love. We can know this because the one to come, as we are told, is the one Christ will reign in. Only those saved (the elect) will reside there with Him.

I think, maybe, where we are misunderstanding one another, is that, Christ is reigning as king and bride of his church that encompasses all of his elect, and is presently on the earth, but not of the earth, but will be gathered up at the last day and taken to heaven.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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I think, maybe, where we are misunderstanding one another, is that, Christ is reigning as king and bride of his church that encompasses all of his elect, and is presently on the earth, but not of the earth, but will be gathered up at the last day and taken to heaven.
Thanks for the explanation, and I'm definitely not looking to disagree with you and actually agree with some of what you've said above, but nevertheless would like to reconcile and understand the "God so loved the world" of John 3:16, which relates to 3:17's " the world through him might be saved". I feel this is critical to know because so much hangs on its intent. Regardless of whether one or the other of us is correct, or if in some way we both are, I think it could be an extremely beneficial dialogue to have.

So, if I understand your point of view correctly, I believe the crux of our different perceptions, comes down to what is to happen to this world, as that will be the determinant of which world it was that "God so loved", as represented by John 3:16. Personally, I find it hard to conceive how Jesus's offering would have been expended upon a world that is to be temporal, destroyed, and therefore not eternal, because if it was then his offering must be judged as a failure, which of course, it was not. Instead, anything covered under His offering was by that made eternal.

If I may ask, how would you interpret the following verses regarding the longevity of this current world? It seems to me that
if it is to be destroyed - which is what these verses seem to indicate - then the world that "God so loved" cannot be this one and must be towards another eternal world - the world that is to come - which would then dramatically change the assumptions that most make regarding the intent of 3:16 and 3:17.

[Isa 65:17 KJV] 17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

[2Pe 3:10,11 KJV]
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,

[Isa 34:4 KJV] 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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“Who were the many as received him?”

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( power to become sons of God )

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-41‬ ‭

If they were born of God, they were already saved (delivered) eternally, Believing and being baptized can save (deliver) them as they sojourn here on earth, but is not the cause of their eternal deliverance.
 

ForestGreenCook

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The "world" could never mean the "elect" in the following verses:
1. John 1:10 The world knew him not
2. John 7:7 The world hates Christ
3. John 8:23 The world consists of the unsaved Jews

You are making progress in learning the truth, that there is a world of the elect, as referenced in John 3:16, and there is another world of the non-elect.