Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

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awelight

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I do not believe 1 Corinthians 2:14 refers to the gospel. I believe 1 Corinthians 2:14 refers to the mystery, the hidden wisdom (1 Cor 2:6-7) which was kept secret ... hid in God ... until God revealed it to Paul.





I understand that is what you believe. I don't hold to that understanding.

to me it appears you've got a person born again in order to hear the Gospel message through which the person is born again.
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Interesting view point on 1 Cor. 2:14. However, you do realize, it is not about what we think something teaches but the whole of Scripture brought together to give an interpretation.

As to the other point - The New Birth is needed to have hearing ears and seeing eyes, as it regards spiritual things. If not - what does this mean? Why would God have to give it?

Jer_5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

Pro_20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.
 

awelight

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It is God’s desire that everyone be saved, but not everyone is saved. How’s that possible if God’s will prevails?
A simple misunderstanding of the verse you are using. While I am sure you will reject my explanation - we must agree that the word "all" can mean many thing. For example: All in number - All in a group - All in type or manner. This is excepted throughout every meaning of the English word "all".

So the question in this verse:

1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Is which meaning does all have in this context. In verses 1-3, Paul says we are to pray for all. However, in verse 2, he clarifies the "all" by mentioning Kings and those in authority. This so we (believers) can lead quite and peaceful lives. Therefore, the "all", means all manner of men in authority.

In verse 4, the "all manner" of men is carried forward. God does not have one type or manner of man that is being saved. It is all manner of men from all walks of life.

As you well pointed out - If God had desired that "all" (As in number), were to be saved - Then God failed in His purpose. May it never be!!!

John Gill had much to say on this Verse:
Who will have all men to be saved,.... The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable: nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Ti_2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones. Moreover, the same persons God would have saved, he would have also
 

awelight

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I got the point actually.



For all your personal study you have missed the truth completely if this is what you believe.^^^^

This is not a benign doctrine.
You are certainly free to believe as you will. Unless God decides otherwise.
 

awelight

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Do you think God is pleased by people who promote lies about Him?



I think changing truth of the character of God is the most egregious offense of all.

Btw they weren't right, just schooled in a particularly bad interpretation started by Augustine.
No... you have that wrong. Augustine did not start it.

I led out with Polycarp. Who wrote many letters, discussing the issue in the early church years. Polycarp, was a contemporary of the Apostles and was trained directly by them. So I guess, by your standards, he was a really bad student.
 

awelight

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This interpretation does not work in the light of other scripture. It is not what Paul is saying at all.

See, this is one of those bad interpretations that just gets repeated and repeated and people believe it is true.

I could explain it to you but you what have to dismiss it because it pretty much destroys the whole God regenerates before faith false teaching.

Very sad.
If you think you can - GO FOR IT.

I love a good challenge but please try to keep it within a reasonable and polite debate.
 

awelight

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The natural man chooses to believe that they are foolishness. This is because of His sinful state. It does not prevent Him from hearing the Gospel. This is clearly delineated in the Scriptures...
Romans 1:
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

See how that works?
I understand that perfectly. Thanks for sharing though.

What you don't understand is that mankind after the Fall, lost his ability to "hear" and "see" spiritual things. That is why God must move upon the sinner with the New Birth first. In that birth, he is given a new heart and his ears and eyes are opened to spiritual reception of God's Word. That is why Solomon, under the inspiration of the Spirit said:

Pro_20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

Apart from the New Birth, mankind is like this:

Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


And again:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Those that have received the New Birth are like this:

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.



 

awelight

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Election pertains to the Church, not the multitudes of the lost and dying that we are commissioned to reach out to and point to that fountain rich and free which is available to whosoever will come and drink.
I am really curious here. Election pertains to the church?

Would you show some Scripture, as well as your understanding of this idea. I think I know where your going with this but am not a 100% sure.
 

HeIsHere

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No... you have that wrong. Augustine did not start it.

I led out with Polycarp. Who wrote many letters, discussing the issue in the early church years. Polycarp, was a contemporary of the Apostles and was trained directly by them. So I guess, by your standards, he was a really bad student.

Seems like, I have read his stuff, I have always wondered what went wrong.
 

HeIsHere

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If you think you can - GO FOR IT.

I love a good challenge but please try to keep it within a reasonable and polite debate.

I am usually pretty good on being polite, self-regulating and not getting personal, typically, most of time, I will try. :)

Stay tuned.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The stipulation, "No one can can come to me unless...", is invaluable I believe in coming into full understanding of God's Election unto his grace, by his choice, not of ourselves so that we cannot claim that responsibility, (boast).
So we see this phrase (you are highlighting), in John 6:44,65, where v.65 elaborates,

"And he said, 'THEREFORE said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except/unless it were given/granted unto him of my Father.'"

So, what's this about exactly?

Well, the context shows that some of His professed disciples had been "murmuring" v.61 (see also vv.41,43), and then v.64 says, "But there are some of you who do not believe [G4100 - '1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in']. (For Jesus knew from the beginning who are those not believing, and who it is who will betray Him.)"

The next verse follows with the "THEREFORE I said unto you..."



So, this (in speaking about ppl who'd followed His ministry, sat under His teaching, seen His miracles and STILL were "not believing") is like the judicial blindness [etc] spoken of in Scripture (example, Rom1... where they are said to be "[God] GAVE THEM UP TO" and "GAVE THEM OVER TO" --which would be unnecessary if that's what they already had [or were] when "born")... And notice the difference, where Paul said (of himself), "but I obtained mercy, BECAUSE I did it ignorantly in unbelief." 1Tim1:13




Later, in John 9:39-41, Jesus says (while talking with the Pharisees), "39And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those not seeing may see, and those seeing may become blind.” (see also John 12:37, 48)... and this is why Matthew 13 says what it does about the REASON FOR the parables (His speaking in parables):

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 
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No... you have that wrong. Augustine did not start it.

I led out with Polycarp. Who wrote many letters, discussing the issue in the early church years. Polycarp, was a contemporary of the Apostles and was trained directly by them. So I guess, by your standards, he was a really bad student.
What Letter(s)?

He, Polycarp, did write one to Philippians.

He was an actual Disciple of the Apostle John and when John took over the Church at Ephesus, one of the 7 Churches that Paul established, also mentioned in the first 2 Chapters of Revelation, Polycarp, who like Ignateus/Iraneus and Others, were leading the different 7 Churches and the Apostle John was over all 7 in the Role of Bishop.

But what letters are you talking about?
 

cv5

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Interesting view point on 1 Cor. 2:14. However, you do realize, it is not about what we think something teaches but the whole of Scripture brought together to give an interpretation.

As to the other point - The New Birth is needed to have hearing ears and seeing eyes, as it regards spiritual things. If not - what does this mean? Why would God have to give it?

Jer_5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

Pro_20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.
Act 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Act 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Willfully rejection = condemnation and eternal contempt
Joyful acceptance = elect status and remission of sins and the gift of eternal life.

Simple. Yet not.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Polycarp, was a contemporary of the Apostles and was trained directly by them. So I guess, by your standards, he was a really bad student.
Not an entirely far-fetched notion, seeing as Peter (an Apostle himself) had heard some words directly from the risen Christ's mouth, yet it was by means of him (Peter, to whom Jesus had spoken the words) that, "23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" False things can start and spread "abroad" so easily, can't they? (I'm not saying this of Polycarp, as though I KNOW... just that it's not wholly unreasonable... given what we saw regarding Peter in this John 21 context! Sitting under Jesus' DIRECT VOICE to him! :D - https://biblehub.com/john/21-23.htm )
 
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Not an entirely far-fetched notion, seeing as Peter (an Apostle himself) had heard some words directly from the risen Christ's mouth, yet it was by means of him (Peter, to whom Jesus had spoken the words) that, "23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" False things can start and spread "abroad" so easily, can't they? (I'm not saying this of Polycarp, as though I KNOW... just that it's not wholly unreasonable... given what we saw regarding Peter in this John 21 context! Sitting under Jesus' DIRECT VOICE to him! :D - https://biblehub.com/john/21-23.htm )
You slam the Apostle Peter to claim Polycarp would be no different?

What is it Polycarp has supposedly written about that he believes is Truth?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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You slam the Apostle Peter to claim Polycarp would be no different?
I didn't "CLAIM," I said it's not "unreasonable" (to view such a thing... IF it were indeed such a thing... similarly)...

...and I didn't "SLAM" Peter... I pointed out what the text itself states regarding him: that what Jesus actually said "to him" was not what was repeated to others as though it WAS what Jesus had said "to him". (An EASY thing to do, btw!! We all have done the same, at one point or another!)

Them's just the facts scripture itself informs us of... no need for me to "SLAM" him. And I didn't.



If it was possible for Peter (an Apostle, hearing straight from the risen Lord's mouth and misconstruing it), then why not others??
 
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I didn't "CLAIM," I said it's not "unreasonable" (to view such a thing... IF it were indeed such a thing... similarly)...

...and I didn't "SLAM" Peter... I pointed out what the text itself states regarding him: that what Jesus actually said "to him" was not what was repeated to others as though it WAS what Jesus had said "to him". (An EASY thing to do, btw!! We all have done the same, at one point or another!)

Them's just the facts scripture itself informs us of... no need for me to "SLAM" him. And I didn't.
Cool!

But what did Polycarp supposedly write that confirms a certain doctrine?
 

ResidentAlien

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Did any of Polycarp's writings make it into the New Testament?
 
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Did any of Polycarp's writings make it into the New Testament?
NO!

But his Letter to the Philippians has been used by Church Fathers, Pastors and Evangelists from then on.

His account verifies some of the Gospel of Christ, specific Topics that John and Paul and Peter used when he quotes Scripture but it is not 2nd Peter 2 whatever, it's what Peter wrote before it ever made it to an official Bible.

But by Polycarp mentioning a Verse how we would read it today without Chapters and Verse numbers and follow it up by saying found in Peter's writings.

Those Verses Polycarp uses and talks about customs and what the Church should be doing, and really constructive information and material for us to know plus the Scripture he quotes, they verify the Bible we have.
 

cv5

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Evidently "foreknowledge" is attached to God's "predetermined council". Perhaps also to the idea of a precursory covenant.
Just tossing this out there to see if I get any bites. Not trying to make any point in particular. Other than the doctrine of "election" is highly prominent in these passages.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, G4267 he also did predestinate G4309 to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, G4309 them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

G4267 - proginōskō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (csb) (blueletterbible.org)
Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. to have knowledge before hand
  2. to foreknow
    1. of those whom God elected to salvation
  3. to predestinate

G4309 - proorizō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
Outline of Biblical Usage ("set out our boundaries ahead of time")
  1. to predetermine, decide beforehand
  2. in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
  3. to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Supposedly Granville Sharp's rule is in effect here re: "counsel" and "foreknowledge".
Act 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge G4268 of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

1Pe 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge G4268 of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

G4268 - prognōsis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. foreknowledge
  2. forethought, pre-arrangement
 
Jun 20, 2022
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Evidently "foreknowledge" is attached to God's "predetermined council". Perhaps also to the idea of a precursory covenant.
Just tossing this out there to see if I get any bites. Not trying to make any point in particular. Other than the doctrine of "election" is highly prominent in these passages.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, G4267 he also did predestinate G4309 to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, G4309 them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

G4267 - proginōskō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (csb) (blueletterbible.org)
Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. to have knowledge before hand
  2. to foreknow
    1. of those whom God elected to salvation
  3. to predestinate

G4309 - proorizō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
Outline of Biblical Usage ("set out our boundaries ahead of time")
  1. to predetermine, decide beforehand
  2. in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
  3. to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Supposedly Granville Sharp's rule is in effect here re: "counsel" and "foreknowledge".
Act 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge G4268 of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

1Pe 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge G4268 of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

G4268 - prognōsis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. foreknowledge
  2. forethought, pre-arrangement
On the days of Creation, God knew how every herb of grass would live and die, the trees, plants, animals, God knew their entire life span and what every day of existence they had God saw them all.

Creation today is no different, God knows it all.

No other gods, because first of all except Demonic interference, gods are FAKE... do what Yahweh does. He knows the End from the Beginning and seen it all for all of us.

But that doesn't mean He interferes, He most certainly Intervenes, but there's nothing showing when we study the Attributes of God He forces us to do a single thing other than He does whole heartedly Desires the wicked to Repent:

Notice the spelling of LORD, All Caps, in the Hebrew this is the Almighty and Most High God Yahweh speaking to Ezekiel..
 

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