Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

[HeIsHere]

Whoever invented this doctrine I wuld not call ti the doctrine of grace, rather the doctrine of compulsion.

If you think you can - GO FOR IT.

I love a good challenge but please try to keep it within a reasonable and polite debate.

First so I am clear, do you believe scripture teaches regeneration before faith because a person is unable to understand the Gospel.

You can clarify more if you want, but I would not want to ascribe a `doctrine` to you that you do not hold.

 

[Inquisitor]

Thanks for the questions.


I'll need to be very brief here (tight schedule ATM)... but basically:

--Romans 1 thru 5:11 [Subject] is "sinS"


... and when he's finished covering THAT, then he transitions to...


--Romans 5:12 - chpt-8-end [Subject] is "Sin"


... and when he's finished covering THAT, then he transitions to...


--Romans 9-11 [Subject]... which is basically addressing the understood question, "what of the promises made to Israel??" [where are they?? what happened to them?? (basically covering "Israel [singular nation]" and "Gentiles [plural nations]"... chpt 11 being esp re Israel's "future")--And summing up that section (chpts 9-11) by saying, "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that He might have mercy UPON ALL" (Jew AND Gentile) - Rom11:32;


...and when he's finished covering THAT, then he transitions to...


--Romans 12 thru the end of Romans [Subject]... which is basically the "practical" application (in view of "the mercies of God" having been spoken of in the previous parts of the epistle, leading up to chpt 12)





Hope that helps you see my perspective. Happy to try to answer any further questions (but may have to wait till tomorrow, or more likely Monday evening). = )

Here is what you said.

"Romans 1 thru 5:11 [Subject] is "sinS"

I hope you allow me to correct the way that you have been reading Romans chapters 1-5

Now have a look at these selected verses from Romans 2 to Romans 5.

Tell me if you think Paul is talking about sin?

Romans 2:17
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God.

Romans 3:1-2
Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect.

Romans 3:27
And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law?

Romans 3:28-29
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Romans 4:1-2
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God.

Romans 4:9
Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also?

Romans 4:13
For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16
For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law.

Romans 4:24
But for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Romans 5:5
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand.

Romans 5:11
And not only this, but we also celebrate in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Romans 5:15
But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many.

 

[Shepherd]

No, Satan did

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here is what you said.
"Romans 1 thru 5:11 [Subject] is "sinS"

I hope you allow me to correct the way that you have been reading Romans chapters 1-5

Now have a look at these selected verses from Romans 2 to Romans 5.

Tell me if you think Paul is talking about sin?

--"sinS"--in the Section between Romans 1 to Romans 5:11--the [things] we commit [etc]... the [things] which can be and are "FORGIVEN" [etc]. Think: "sinned" Rom2:12 [2x], 3:23; "sinner" Romans 3:7; "iniquities" and "sins" Romans 4:7, etc etc;


--"Sin"--in the Section between Romans 5:12 to Romans 8-end--that which is NEVER "forgiven," only "CONDEMNED"...


In this post, my focus will be on the latter of these two (to show example):



Consider the following (in which I will place the SECOND Section... the one regarding "Sin" [often 'THE Sin']):

[note: this took a long time to type up... so I'm only placing the "definite article ['THE']" where it's used (in the Grk) with the word "SIN," not in EVERY use of the word "the" where it's found in the Grk in these verses, below... saving me a little work and time... I'm focusing on the *main point* of my post, here]


[Sin] -

1) Rom 5:12 - "THE Sin [2x]"

Wherefore, as by one man THE sin entered into the world, and death by THE sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

- https://biblehub.com/text/romans/5-12.htm [note: I'm only linking a few of these verses]


2) Rom 5:13 -

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


3) Rom 5:20 - "THE Sin"

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where THE sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


4) Rom 5:21 - "THE Sin"

That as THE sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


5) Rom 6:1 - "THE Sin"

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in THE sin, that grace may abound?


6) Rom 6:2 - "THE Sin"

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to THE sin, live any longer therein?


7) Rom 6:6 - "THE Sin [2x]"

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of THE sin might be destroyed [rendered inoperative], that henceforth we should not serve THE sin.

- https://biblehub.com/text/romans/6-6.htm ["the body of THE sin" - not speaking of our bodies, here, as some suppose]


8) Rom 6:7 - "THE Sin"

For he that is dead is freed from THE sin.


9) Rom 6:10 - "THE Sin"

For in that he died, he died unto THE sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.


10) Rom 6:11 - "THE Sin"

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto THE sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


11) Rom 6:12 - "THE Sin"

Let not THE sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


12) Rom 6:13 - "THE Sin"

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto THE sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


13) Rom 6:14 -

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


14) Rom 6:15 -

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


15) Rom 6:16 -

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


16) Rom 6:17 - "THE Sin"

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of THE sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.


17) Rom 6:18 - "THE Sin"

Being then made free from THE sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


18) Rom 6:20 - "THE Sin"

For when ye were the servants of THE sin, ye were free from righteousness.


19) Rom 6:22 - "THE Sin"

But now being made free from THE sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


20) Rom 6:23 - "THE Sin"

For the wages of THE sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


21) Rom 7:7 - "THE Sin"

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known THE sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


22) Rom 7:8 - "THE Sin"

But THE sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.


23) Rom 7:9 - "THE Sin"

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, THE sin revived, and I died.


24) Rom 7:11 - "THE Sin"

For THE sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.


25) Rom 7:13 - "THE Sin [2x]"

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But THE sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that THE sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.


26) Rom 7:14 - "THE Sin"

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under THE sin.


27) Rom 7:17 - "THE Sin"

Now then it is no more I that do it, but THE sin that dwelleth in me.


-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/7/17/t_concif_1053017 [definite article]

-- https://biblehub.com/text/romans/7-17.htm [definite article]


28) Rom 7:20 - "THE Sin"

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but THE sin that dwelleth in me.

-- https://biblehub.com/text/romans/7-20.htm [definite article]


29) Rom 7:23 - "THE Sin"

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of THE sin which is in my members.

-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/7/23/t_concif_1053023 [definite article]

-- https://biblehub.com/text/romans/7-23.htm [definite article]


30) Rom 7:25 -

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


31) Rom 8:2 - "THE Sin"

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of THE sin and death.


32) Rom 8:3 - "THE Sin"

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned THE sin in the flesh:


33) Rom 8:10 -

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.




[Then when Paul is done covering the Subject of "Sin"... after chpt 8, Paul then transitions (in chpts 9-11) to covering the Subject of [the understood question]: 'what of the promises made to Israel? [where are they? what happened to them?]'--Subject being, basically, 'nations' ("Israel [singular nation]" and "Gentiles [plural nations]"... only mentioning "sins" when speaking of Israel's "future" in 11:27 ["when I shall take away their sins"] which correlates with Isa27:9[,12-13]/Matt24:29-31 and Dan9:24, etc etc)]




Hope this helps you see a little better, my perspective (as to your question posed in a previous post). = )

 

[awelight]

Yes, it does. She is the Elect Bride of Christ.
Those under the blood of Jesus are corporately referred to as "The Elect".

1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Peter is here addressing the Church, which is indeed predestined for Heaven. God foreknew who would choose to come in and abide.

I agree, the church or assembly, is an elect corporate group but election is also individual.

You stating that "God foreknew who would choose to come in and abide." will not hold up in light of this in the Scriptures:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob and Esau were individuals and it clearly says here in Rom.9:11, that neither were yet born nor had they any opportunity to do anything good or bad. Nevertheless, God chose to love one and hate another, which is to say God chose one and passed by the other.

 

[Magenta]

I agree, the church or assembly, is an elect corporate group but election is also individual.

You stating that "God foreknew who would choose to come in and abide." will not hold up in light of this in the Scriptures:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that
the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob and Esau were individuals and it clearly says here in Rom.9:11, that neither were yet born nor had they any opportunity to do anything good or bad. Nevertheless, God chose to love one and hate another, which is to say God chose one and passed by the other.

Jacob and Esau were also identified as nations, most easily recognized perhaps as believers vs unbelievers.

Surely we all understand that God has chosen believers for life ever after, while non-believers go to the second death.

 

[awelight]

In 1 Cor 2, the context changes from the gospel to the mystery, the hidden wisdom at 1 Cor 2:6.


1 Corinthians 2:

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Jesus Christ, and Him crucified = gospel


1 Corinthians 2:

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [of full age, mature]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom [the gospel was never hid], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


The things spoken of in vss 6-14 which are spiritually discerned are enumerated in the verses:

vs 6 – the wisdom which was discussed among the mature believers ... the gospel was taught in the general congregation (vss 1-2).

vs 7 – the wisdom of God in a mystery ... this wisdom was kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25); and in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men (Eph 3:5); and from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God (Eph 3:9); and which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest (Col 1:26). Again, the gospel was never hid ... the gospel is proclaimed throughout all of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

vs 8 – if the devil and his minions had known the mystery, the hidden wisdom, they never would have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ.

vs 9 – the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 10 – the deep things of God go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel). The gospel is considered milk upon which the new believer (indeed, all believers) is to desire so that he/she may grow thereby... the mystery, the hidden wisdom is (scripturally) considered to be strong meat.

vs 11 – the things of God which no man knoweth go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 12 – the things that are freely given to us of God go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 13 – things which the Holy Ghost teacheth go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 14 – the things of the Spirit of God and specifically the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).





The verse in Jeremiah refers to the people who had turned away from God.

Jeremiah 5:11-12 For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me, saith the LORD. They have belied the LORD, and said, it is not he; neither shall evil come upon us; neither shall we see sword nor famine


The verse in Proverbs tells us that God has gifted us with ears and eyes. The purpose of ears and eyes is for mankind to hear and seek God.

We are told to hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother: for they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.

We are told further if sinners entice thee, consent thou not. If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause ... cast in thy lot among us ... My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path (Prov 1:8-15).

Are you suggesting that God is to blame when a person mis-utilizes that which God gifted to him or her ... ears that they should hear / eyes that they should see???
.

The Gospel and the wisdom and the mysteries of God cannot be uncoupled. They are one and the same as revealed in Scripture.

You said that the Gospel was never hidden... that is not true. This verses prove that God hid these things from many.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There are many more. In Mat.11:25, we see that the Father hid these things. In John 12:40, is another type of hiding. In 2 Cor. 4:3, 4, we have the devil doing the hiding.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

 

[awelight]

Whoever invented this doctrine I wuld not call ti the doctrine of grace, rather the doctrine of compulsion.


First so I am clear, do you believe scripture teaches regeneration before faith because a person is unable to understand the Gospel.

You can clarify more if you want, but I would not want to ascribe a `doctrine` to you that you do not hold.

Yes, Regeneration must proceed the ability to believe. However, even though there are distinct differences between Regeneration (The New Birth) and Conversion - they are so tightly linked together to almost be simultaneous. Regeneration proceeds Conversion but Regeneration does not take place weeks, months before Conversion.

However, if Regeneration does not take place first, then the old fallen nature will not lay hold of the Gospel. For the Gospel is contrary to that nature. Many things must change in the person and do at Regeneration. Regeneration is the Sovereign work of the Spirit upon the recipient. God moving first. Conversion is our responsibility, in conjunction with the Spirit.

The fallen nature of mankind cannot and will not choose the things of God. This is stated over and over again in Scripture but perhaps the best place to see the state of mankind in the Scriptures - is here:

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

IT MUST BE NOTED HERE that all of the human race was in this condition. This is the fallen condition. This condition still prevails today - nothing has changed.

All would have been lost if Noah had not found favor in God's eye, along with the other seven. Think upon this for a moment and contemplate it. Only eight people, did God save, from the population of the entire world. This reality, should make one tremble.

 

[oyster67]

I agree, the church or assembly, is an elect corporate group but election is also individual.

You stating that "God foreknew who would choose to come in and abide." will not hold up in light of this in the Scriptures:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob and Esau were individuals and it clearly says here in Rom.9:11, that neither were yet born nor had they any opportunity to do anything good or bad. Nevertheless, God chose to love one and hate another, which is to say God chose one and passed by the other.

Yes. God chooses and elects according to foreknowledge. This group is collectively known as the Church. There is nothing mysterious about that. God dwells above time and knows who will ultimately choose to come to Him and become a part of His Bride. The call goes out to all. That is the Gospel. God sent His Son to Atone for all. The gift of salvation if available to whosever will receive it. Teach no other doctrine.

1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Matthew 22:9,10
“Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.”
“So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.”

There is no privileged pre-selected master class who has exclusive rights and access to salvation.

 

[awelight]

Jacob and Esau were also identified as nations, most easily recognized perhaps as believers vs unbelievers.

Surely we all understand that God has chosen believers for life ever after, while non-believers go to the second death.

There is a two part question here... when you said God has chosen believers for life ever after and it is in these two questions that make the difference between RIGHT and WRONG, as well as, God receiving all the Glory or man sharing in that Glory.

If God chose from eternity past, for reasons that seemed good to Him and are unknowable by us. Then God chose with no conditions (Anything that we might do), set upon Himself and is due all the Glory for our Salvation.

But, if God chose from eternity past, those that He foresaw would believe in His Son, then we share in His Glory for our righteous decision to believe in His Son.

In the middle of these two questions, stands mankind's fallen nature. That somehow, some way, we overcame it on our own. See post #488.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 11:32

 

[awelight]

Yes. God chooses and elects according to foreknowledge. This group is collectively known as the Church. There is nothing mysterious about that. God dwells above time and knows who will ultimately choose to come to Him and become a part of His Bride. The call goes out to all. That is the Gospel. God sent His Son to Atone for all. The gift of salvation if available to whosever will receive it. Teach no other doctrine.

1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Matthew 22:9,10
“Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.”
“So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.”

There is no privileged pre-selected master class who has exclusive rights and access to salvation.

This thought process rises from a misunderstanding of the Greek word translated foreknowledge and it's application to the Divine.

If 1 Pet. 1:2, meant by doing good, because one chose to believe in Christ, then it would stand in direct contradiction to Rom. 9:11-13.

I could go into detail about this Greek word but I doubt you would be interested.

 

[oyster67]

This thought process rises from a misunderstanding of the Greek word translated foreknowledge and it's application to the Divine.

There is nothing complicated about the Gospel. There is nothing complicated about the will of God.

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Jesus went to the Cross to provide a Way for all to come to the Father.

 

[awelight]

Romans 11:32

Romans 11:32, within it's context, was discussing the Jews being disobedient (v.31) and that the saved Gentiles had been disobedient, (v.30). In this way, God will have mercy on "all" (Not everyone - in the Greek). All - as in both Jew and Gentile. Not all as in everyone.

 

[awelight]

There is nothing complicated about the Gospel. There is nothing complicated about the will of God.

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Jesus went to the Cross to provide a Way for all to come to the Father.

2 Pet. 3:9. says, that God is longsuffering to us-ward or toward us... who are the "US" in this context? It cannot be everyone! For if this was the case, we would be waiting forever and ever because everyone isn't coming to repentance.

 

[oyster67]

2 Pet. 3:9. says, that God is longsuffering to us-ward or toward us... who are the "US" in this context? It cannot be everyone!

It certainly does mean everyone. It means exactly what it says. Reject the truth at your own peril.
2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sadly, some people hate that man has been given the ability to chose.

soaves sometimes get comfortable in the dungeon and won’t look up to see the door torn off it’s hinges and thier chains torn asunder realizing they are free to walk outside into the light

Part of the issue is other inmates are telling them “there’s no escape your a lifer just keep your head and voice down “
but it’s part of the process really the change that we are meant to be undergoing but some tend to resist. Change

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

( notice now he is instructions then into repentance and obedience ) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

arhat type of thing is we don’t refuse to let it be true changes our minds from sin to righteousness from lies to truth

Some are still of the old yet and haven’t let thier mind be renewed by hearing and believing the gospel often because someone’s telling them “it is nt true or it’s not for you “which is where righteousness is found changing the heart and mind from a sinner over to Christ when we accept the truth

because the mind isn’t yet renewed they are still thinking like a servant to sin. And don’t realize this choice they have been given

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,( past tense ) but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.( Paul’s discussing baptism in this chapter ) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; ( in the past)

even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬


we have to decide who we are going to offer our lives to obey either satans Will of sinning freely leading to death or we can offer ourselves to the lord in obedience ( we aren’t going to be perfect ) it’s about the conviction “ I’m done serving satans Will he’s trying to kill me if I keep obeying sin I’m not going to live “

And “ Jesus gave his precious life for me in order to save me from my sins I’m going to start taking my actions seriously repenting of the wrong and growing up into the righteousness of God

 

[awelight]

It certainly does mean everyone. It means exactly what it says. Reject the truth at your own peril.
2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Sir, your response is easy to say, I could say it with you in agreement but does it really teach that? The answer is no.

I gave you the objections, to your first response, using this verse. Please address the points that I made and give me a reasonable counter to those points.

Reposted and amended:
2 Pet. 3:9. says, that God is longsuffering to us-ward or toward us... who are the "US" in this context? It cannot be everyone! For if this was the case, we would be waiting forever and ever because everyone isn't coming to repentance. Therefore, the "any" and "all", must be any and all from a select group. The Elect.

 

[oyster67]

It certainly does mean everyone. It means exactly what it says. Reject the truth at your own peril.
2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Sir, your response is easy to say

Indeed, it is. That's because I'm speaking the Truth straight from the Word of God.

 

[awelight]

What Letter(s)?

He, Polycarp, did write one to Philippians.

He was an actual Disciple of the Apostle John and when John took over the Church at Ephesus, one of the 7 Churches that Paul established, also mentioned in the first 2 Chapters of Revelation, Polycarp, who like Ignateus/Iraneus and Others, were leading the different 7 Churches and the Apostle John was over all 7 in the Role of Bishop.

But what letters are you talking about?

I probably should not have framed it in that way. For only one of his letters has survived the test of time. I was thinking in a more loose way, that it is very likely Polycarp wrote many letters.