Salvation is for the Whole World

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Cameron143

Cameron143

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Magenta said:
I do wonder what people themselves have experienced of God's goodness and grace, and His loving kindness.

Sometimes it really seems like they are just arguing from what they have read, devoid of depth of understanding.
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I actually think people are more guided by their experience rather than the word of God. God is infinite and is saving people in a great many places, under a myriad of circumstances, in a multitude of ways. And I find people either unwilling or unable to consider other possibilities.
We all have our testimonies. Each one a monument of grace. Each one a brilliant depiction of God's great mercy and love. How it all breaks down is a fine topic of debate. But it isn't worth losing sight of God's deliriously wondrous salvation wrought in the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

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HeIsHere said:
First let me ask you do believe in context? (the principles of hermeneutics)

do you think there is a greater point that Paul is addressing when he writes to the this church in Corinth?

If you no to the above we have nothing further to discuss., which is fine, it is not personal.
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Scripture should not be taken out of context, neither should scriptures contradict each other.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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rogerg said:
Well okay, how then would you interpret these verses (just to name a few) in terms of man being able to respond of himself?

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

or this?

[Rom 3:10-12 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
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The same as you. But I don't divorce salvation from the one being saved.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Cameron143 said:
I actually think people are more guided by their experience rather than the word of God. God is infinite
and is saving people in a great many places, under a myriad of circumstances, in a multitude of ways.
And I find people either unwilling or unable to consider other possibilities.

We all have our testimonies. Each one a monument of grace. Each one a brilliant depiction of God's
great mercy and love. How it all breaks down is a fine topic of debate. But it isn't worth losing sight
of God's deliriously wondrous salvation wrought in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
You are so eloquent .:D. My concern is that some have not experienced God in a way that enhances their understanding of Scripture.

That comes across in ways such as saying acceptance of God's gift is a work, and nullifies God's grace.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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rogerg said:
Don't follow you? Please clarify.
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Let me try an analogy...

Let's say a patient needs an operation. The patient is put under anesthesia and the doctor performs the operation. The patient is fixed.

That's how I read your version of salvation. The patient needs a salvationectomy and God anestisizes them and operates on their heart. The sinner is fixed.

I see alot more human and divine interaction taking place.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Magenta said:
You are so eloquent .:D. My concern is that some have not experienced God in a way that enhances their understanding of Scripture.

That comes across in ways such as saying acceptance of God's gift is a work, and nullifies God's grace.
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Those are very kind words. As for those you believe you nullify grace, there is always prayer.
 
oyster67

oyster67

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ForestGreenCook said:
Two, intirly, different worlds. One God loves, and the other he hates.
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John 3:17
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
 
R

rogerg

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Beckie said:
Magenta

rogerg
Reading along a good exchange on a touchy topic , Thinking wow apposing views but pleasant ! :) then comes the last few we are back to normal.
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lol - in other words, don't know if I should agree with you or defend myself.
Cameron143 said:
Let me try an analogy...

Let's say a patient needs an operation. The patient is put under anesthesia and the doctor performs the operation. The patient is fixed.

That's how I read your version of salvation. The patient needs a salvationectomy and God anestisizes them and operates on their heart. The sinner is fixed.

I see alot more human and divine action taking place.
Click to expand...
Ahh, no, that's not exactly how I see it. I think a better analogy would be if the patient were stone-cold dead, and being so, his body is unable to contribute to it being fixed as someone's whose body is still alive could.
Instead, a person walks by with a miraculous cure, administers it, bringing the person back to life with a new heart and mind.
That would be the salvationectomy that I am thinking of.
How would you see it?
 
Beckie

Beckie

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oyster67 said:
John 3:17
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
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The world was already condemned that is why Jesus was sacrificed.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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rogerg said:
In other words, don't know if I should agree with you or defend myself.


Ahh, no, that's not exactly how I see it. I think a better analogy would be if the patient were stone-cold dead, and being so, his body is unable to contribute to it being fixed as someone's whose body is still alive could.
Instead, a person walks by with a miraculous cure, administers it, bringing the person back to life with a new heart and mind.
That would be the salvationectomy that I am thinking of.
How would you see it?
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I believe God interacts with zombies. True, they are dead spiritually, but he interacts with functioning parts and inclines them toward the cure. But they willingly drink the kool-aid.
I do understand your point of view. I do believe God enables. But the one enabled still acts. They simply react as the changes allow.
I live, yet not I; Christ liveth in me.
I live by His power, but I'm still doing the living. Otherwise, why do I need to understand the relationship between the vine and the branches?
 
R

rogerg

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Cameron143 said:
I believe God interacts with zombies. True, they are dead spiritually, but he interacts with functioning parts and inclines them toward the cure. But they willingly drink the kool-aid.
I do understand your point of view. I do believe God enables. But the one enabled still acts. They simply react as the changes allow.
I live, yet not I; Christ liveth in me.
I live by His power, but I'm still doing the living. Otherwise, why do I need to understand the relationship between the vine and the branches?
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Okay, but I don't find any contribution mentioned by those who had obtained the "like precious faith". I read that it was all by/of Christ. They were only recipients/beneficiaries.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Cameron143 said:
Those are very kind words. As for those you believe you nullify grace, there is always prayer.
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This is a side story :D I was not saved yet when this happened (although some would say I was even though I was devoid of faith and did not believe in "that" God). I was a member of a number of 12 step fellowships, most notably AA and NA. I liked NA because it was so raw and I could really relate to the hurting people were experiencing. On the other hand, I loved AA because there was seemingly so much more light and love there, which really just amounted to me feeling less comfortable there even though I was very much attracted by those qualities. Anyways, I was at an AA meeting where the format was a main speaker who shared their story, and then picked a topic and selected others to share. One by one those selected got up and told their stories, many disclosing some of the most heinous and despicable things they had done (gotta love the honesty!) but then quickly asserting what a good person they were. Heh. Yeah. Then a guy was asked to share who immediately started out by saying, I don't know about being a good person. I lied because I am a liar. I stole because I am a thief. I cheated because I am a cheat. Then he walked away from the podium. I was flabbergasted. Who was that man?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I found out maybe a few years later when I went to someone's cake where I became reacquainted with a woman I had known before, and she invited me to the Alpha Course. That man, and that woman, were both Christians, and both at that cake meeting (I recognized him from before) and it was not long after that, that I became one too, because it was during the Alpha Course that I realized I had stopped fighting against God. I am friends with that man to this day, though I have once again lost touch with the woman in this story.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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rogerg said:
Okay, but I don't find any contribution mentioned by those who had obtained the "like precious faith". I read that it was all by/of Christ. They were only recipients/beneficiaries.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Click to expand...
That's just one verse. I don't see it there either. And there are many such verses. There are also many verses that seem to say salvation is a choice.
As I look at the whole of scripture, I tend to put the greater weight with God's actions. But salvation never happens where there is no response. Neither is it designed to. Afterall, salvation is the beginning of a rich and intimate relationship with God.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Magenta said:
This is a side story :D I was not saved yet when this happened (although some would say I was even though I was devoid of faith and did not believe in "that" God). I was a member of a number of 12 step fellowships, most notably AA and NA. I liked NA because it was so raw and I could really relate to the hurting people were experiencing. On the other hand, I loved AA because there was seemingly so much more light and love there, which really just amounted to me feeling less comfortable there even though I was very much attracted by those qualities. Anyways, I was at an AA meeting where the format was a main speaker who shared their story, and then picked a topic and selected others to share. One by one those selected got up and told their stories, many disclosing some of the most heinous and despicable things they had done (gotta love the honesty!) but then quickly asserting what a good person they were. Heh. Yeah. Then a guy was asked to share who immediately started out by saying, I don't know about being a good person. I lied because I am a liar. I stole because I am a thief. I cheated because I am a cheat. Then he walked away from the podium. I was flabbergasted. Who was that man?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I found out maybe a few years later when I went to someone's cake where I became reacquainted with a woman I had known before, and she invited me to the Alpha Course. That man, and that woman, were both Christians, and both at that cake meeting (I recognized him from before) and it was not long after that, that I became one too, because it was during the Alpha Course that I realized I had stopped fighting against God. I am friends with that man to this day, though I have once again lost touch with the woman in this story.
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That's a great story.
 
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