And Moreover I Saw Under The Sun The Place Of Judgment,

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Walter

Walter

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Jul 20, 2022
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firstthings1sttab.tripod.com
#1
Wednesday 3-15-23 15th. Day Of The Weekly Cycle Adar 22, 5783 85th. Winter Day

Ecclesiastes 3

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?

10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.

13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Love, Walter and Debbie
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Amen the ot states this truth for the future

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭


and the New Testament introduces us to the judge and his true judgements and promises

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“..Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:9-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#3
Jul 18, 2017
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#3
Walter said:
18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Click to expand...
We need to understand that this is the natural man -- "under the sun" -- who does not really know the truth. He believes all is vanity but that is not what God says. No one should base their theology on the book of Ecclesiastes. This is where the cults get their bizarre doctrines.

1. God created man in his own image, so men are not beasts (even though many behave as such). Indeed the Bible says that God made men "a little lower than the angels".

2. Yes both men and animals eventually die. But the end of men is not dust. The body becomes dust but the soul and spirit continue for ever, either in Heaven or in Hell.

3. All is not vanity since God has a plan for His Church as well as for the New Heavens and the New Earth.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#5
Mar 1, 2022
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I heard a preacher say once that if life under the sun doesn't connect to life over the sun, then you got no life son.

The book of Ecclesiastes is great for doctrine. It reminds us all to well of the futility of life lived apart from God.
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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VARob said:
Interesting... So parts of the Bible are not true for you?
Click to expand...
He only said that because my post began with it and we disagreed the other day 😂 just the politics of the forum lol
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Cameron143 said:
I heard a preacher say once that if life under the sun doesn't connect to life over the sun, then you got no life son.

The book of Ecclesiastes is great for doctrine. It reminds us all to well of the futility of life lived apart from God.
Click to expand...
“The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭

The apostle Paul to the church at Corinth

“Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#10
Jul 18, 2017
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#10
VARob said:
Interesting... So parts of the Bible are not true for you?
Click to expand...
That's not the point. The Bible accurately records the things that are recorded, and the words that are recorded, whether true or false. And if what is recorded is nonsense, then God gives us the discernment to see that. That there is no difference between men and beasts is pure nonsense. But that is the thought of the man "under the sun" -- the one who does not understand spiritual things. We could look at many other instances where people said things which were not true.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#11
Mar 1, 2022
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Nehemiah6 said:
That's not the point. The Bible accurately records the things that are recorded, and the words that are recorded, whether true or false. And if what is recorded is nonsense, then God gives us the discernment to see that. That there is no difference between men and beasts is pure nonsense. But that is the thought of the man "under the sun" -- the one who does not understand spiritual things. We could look at many other instances where people said things which were not true.
Click to expand...
I think the understanding is that if a man's life does not somehow connect to the life of God, it is lived in the same way a beast relates to God: as merely a created being. Animals were created thus. Man was created for so much more.
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Cameron143 said:
I think the understanding is that if a man's life does not somehow connect to the life of God, it is lived in the same way a beast relates to God: as merely a created being. Animals were created thus. Man was created for so much more.
Click to expand...
Hes asking a lot of rhetorical questions

“Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?”

he isnt saying there’s no difference he’s saying who knows what happens to a man’s spirit or animals at death ? Who knows animals don’t go to heaven ? Who knows if man does ?

for us who are alive what happens at death is a mystery
Nehemiah6 said:
That's not the point. The Bible accurately records the things that are recorded, and the words that are recorded, whether true or false. And if what is recorded is nonsense, then God gives us the discernment to see that. That there is no difference between men and beasts is pure nonsense. But that is the thought of the man "under the sun" -- the one who does not understand spiritual things. We could look at many other instances where people said things which were not true.
Click to expand...
That isnt his conclusion it’s a narrative of his experiences in life and how it changed his views of life on earth and even life after death it’s like one king poem with several acts gave him wisdom through his many vain searches for fulfillment

Later

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭

His conclusion is well said when the narrative ends
 
V

VARob

Banned
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Dec 21, 2020
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#13
Nehemiah6 said:
That's not the point. The Bible accurately records the things that are recorded, and the words that are recorded, whether true or false. And if what is recorded is nonsense, then God gives us the discernment to see that. That there is no difference between men and beasts is pure nonsense. But that is the thought of the man "under the sun" -- the one who does not understand spiritual things.
Click to expand...
Man is created in God’s image, animals are not. But concerning what happens at death, there is no difference. Both man and animals die, and are dead. Men will be resurrected, animals will not. There are many verses besides those in Ecclesiastes supporting this.

I am familiar with your position on this, and am prepared for how you’ll probably respond.

We could look at many other instances where people said things which were not true.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
SilverFox7

SilverFox7

Well-known member
#14
Dec 24, 2022
676
425
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
#14
Walter said:
Wednesday 3-15-23 15th. Day Of The Weekly Cycle Adar 22, 5783 85th. Winter Day

Ecclesiastes 3

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?

10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.

13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Love, Walter and Debbie
Click to expand...
How inspiring!

After work tonight on the local "classics" station, I enjoyed the Birds' beautiful rendition of this awesome poetry of wisdom from King Solomon (likely) in one of the most powerful and profound books in the Bible, Ecclesiastes.

Here is a YouTube link to this existential song:

Turn! Turn! Turn! (To Everything There Is A Season) - YouTube
 
SilverFox7

SilverFox7

Well-known member
#16
Dec 24, 2022
676
425
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
#16
Nehemiah6 said:
We need to understand that this is the natural man -- "under the sun" -- who does not really know the truth. He believes all is vanity but that is not what God says. No one should base their theology on the book of Ecclesiastes. This is where the cults get their bizarre doctrines.

1. God created man in his own image, so men are not beasts (even though many behave as such). Indeed the Bible says that God made men "a little lower than the angels".

2. Yes both men and animals eventually die. But the end of men is not dust. The body becomes dust but the soul and spirit continue for ever, either in Heaven or in Hell.

3. All is not vanity since God has a plan for His Church as well as for the New Heavens and the New Earth.
Click to expand...
All is "vanity" apart from a converted life in Jesus Christ! Ecclesiastes is a book with a thesis of living an experimental lifestyle. Even if we have it all--the "perfect" life per the world's standards--we are empty without God.

As Pilrimshope so aptly noted...

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬

We've tried it our way and failed, Lord. Thank you for redeeming us from a life of vanity!‭
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#17
Sep 2, 2020
14,143
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113
#17
Cameron143 said:
I think the understanding is that if a man's life does not somehow connect to the life of God, it is lived in the same way a beast relates to God: as merely a created being. Animals were created thus. Man was created for so much more.
Click to expand...
MMyeah the book is a continuing narrative of his experiences in life he goes through money and concubines and has every worldly thing but in the end he concludes all there really is , is to follow the lord because all else is vanity

It’s like job you have to read it like a whole story or poem to get the meaning
 
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