Submit and Obey

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Gideon300

Well-known member
#61
Mar 18, 2021
5,347
3,150
113
#61
SandWhich said:
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:
for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account,
that they may do it with joy, and not with grief:
for that is unprofitable for you.


What do you have to say to this,
that is written in the book of Hebrews
concerning you? If I had rule over you
would you obey me and submit yourselves to it?
Or would you rebel and not live by this written in the book of Hebrews
as you are commanded by it?
Click to expand...
Obedience is fundamentally to Jesus. He is Lord, not your pastor. However, Jesus has delegated authority to the elders of the assembly. As an aside, the position of pastor is greatly overstated. The word pastor is used twice in the New Testament.

Submission is essential, but it's a little more complex than at first sight. Every believer has a place in the body of Christ. We need to be willing to submit to each other depending on the calling of each individual. This is out of love, not a legalistic demands. When we see the benefits of submission, it becomes easier.

Pastors are not meant to be slave driving control freaks. They are not supposed to live your Christian life for you. I had a pastor who saw himself like a conductor of an orchestra where he controlled the people absolutely. That's not a shepherd, that's a dictator. I left that place, led by the Spirit to another church. I prophesied the demise of that church and it duly came to pass. For decades, I had a pastor who was firm with me and helped me greatly. He passed away, but he still is the greatest influence for good I have ever met.

Every Christian should be led by the Spirit. If not, then no Christian is obliged to follow the dictates of someone's self will. We do not submit to an individual. We submit to Jesus in each other.
 
T

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
#62
Jan 17, 2023
4,785
2,068
113
#62
SandWhich said:
As you have stated, I have already begin, everything I have posted, has no error within any of it.
Therefore it has to be the truth.
Click to expand...

Bud, I don't like tail chasing. I answered and you went into attack mode. Name your church, your religion, your message, whatever it is you think you need to spew here. If you're unsure, then you need to sit back and listen. Were you not taught any manners, like, at all?
 
S

SandWhich

Member
#63
Mar 17, 2023
47
0
6
#63
ThereRoseaLamb said:
Bud, I don't like tail chasing. I answered and you went into attack mode. Name your church, your religion, your message, whatever it is you think you need to spew here. If you're unsure, then you need to sit back and listen. Were you not taught any manners, like, at all?
Click to expand...
How is that working for you?
 
S

SandWhich

Member
#65
Mar 17, 2023
47
0
6
#65
maxwel said:
This passage has to be taken in context, and taken in proper tension and balance with the rest of scripture.

A good pastor would not beat his congregation with this verse in order to control them, or exaggerate his authority.
He would first do a careful analysis of the passage, and then he would place it into very careful balance with the rest of scripture.
A good pastor would be especially careful with a passage that has been often abused.

The original audience for this book was Jewish Christians, people who would have understood the theology and wisdom books of the Old Testament. So this book was probably written with the presumption that the readers would already have the theological context with which to understand it. Modern readers do not necessarily come pre-equiped with this theological understanding.
.




.
Click to expand...
I take it you will not submit or obey, unless it is in the context you put it.
 
S

SandWhich

Member
#67
Mar 17, 2023
47
0
6
#67
Gideon300 said:
Obedience is fundamentally to Jesus. He is Lord, not your pastor. However, Jesus has delegated authority to the elders of the assembly. As an aside, the position of pastor is greatly overstated. The word pastor is used twice in the New Testament.

Submission is essential, but it's a little more complex than at first sight. Every believer has a place in the body of Christ. We need to be willing to submit to each other depending on the calling of each individual. This is out of love, not a legalistic demands. When we see the benefits of submission, it becomes easier.

Pastors are not meant to be slave driving control freaks. They are not supposed to live your Christian life for you. I had a pastor who saw himself like a conductor of an orchestra where he controlled the people absolutely. That's not a shepherd, that's a dictator. I left that place, led by the Spirit to another church. I prophesied the demise of that church and it duly came to pass. For decades, I had a pastor who was firm with me and helped me greatly. He passed away, but he still is the greatest influence for good I have ever met.

Every Christian should be led by the Spirit. If not, then no Christian is obliged to follow the dictates of someone's self will. We do not submit to an individual. We submit to Jesus in each other.
Click to expand...
I take it you will not submit or obey.
 
S

SandWhich

Member
#68
Mar 17, 2023
47
0
6
#68
Cameron143 said:
Oh...you got jokes. Awesome.
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No, I have no jokes, but God did give me a sence of humor.
He said to me I would need it down here dealing with all the evil doers.
I have to agree with Him. He was right. Again.
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#72
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
113
#72
SandWhich said:
Everything, that is without error.
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Why don't you just be honest and tell us your beliefs?


Unless... maybe... you're really just an atheist who picked a controversial verse... and you're here on a Saturday night, having some laughs, trolling a Christian forum?



.Just thinking out loud.
.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#73
Mar 1, 2022
19,211
6,608
113
62
#73
SandWhich said:
No, I have no jokes, but God did give me a sence of humor.
He said to me I would need it down here dealing with all the evil doers.
I have to agree with Him. He was right. Again.
Click to expand...
Do you consider me an evildoer? A villain maybe. Do you know any good villain names?
 
S

SandWhich

Member
#77
Mar 17, 2023
47
0
6
#77
maxwel said:
Why don't you just be honest and tell us your beliefs?


Unless... maybe... you're really just an atheist who picked a controversial verse... and you're here on a Saturday night, having some laughs, trolling a Christian forum?



.Just thinking out loud.
.
Click to expand...
The Lord is my God.
My Lord is Jesus Christ.

We will start here with what I believe and who I am.
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#79
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
113
#79
SandWhich said:
The Lord is my God.
My Lord is Jesus Christ.

We will start here with what I believe and who I am.
Click to expand...

So... 5 seconds ago you were "unsure" of your spiritual status... but now you're a devout Christian?

That's wonderful. Huge change in 5 seconds. Congrats!

.
 
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