Baptizing

DJT_47 · Mar 22, 2023

Don't let pre-conceived notions or your personal bias and gut feelings buide you but rather review all the scriptures and let them be the guide. The bible says the below. Don't become trapped and a victim of the opinions of man.

Proverbs 14:12

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, But the end thereof are the ways of death.

Happy_hobnob · Mar 22, 2023

Thankyou all for your replies, I can see some of are you are well studied in this field,
I'm glad to be here and learn, I do not have time to take everything I have learned so far but I will study, but I am going to take the advice to do a full in-depth study,

What I have learned so far is there seams to be no certain answer, which is fine, as to why an unsaved person who has a bad spirit would need to fast first befor being able to receive the spirit, or why the blesser would need to fast first befor calling on the lords name to have such a person recieve the lords name or spirit,

It seems to me from the beginning of the old t, to the end of the new t, preparation rituals where very important, so much so if a person was unclean he was told to leave the camp.

Preparation rituals where fasting baptising, discipline, cleansing, purifying, prayer, confessing, annointing, the use of herbs, and fresh smelling fragrances,

There is so many, fasting however is disaplin and a type of cleansing, which could be associated with purifying,. So my train of thought for a full in depth study to try and find out the reason to which I can not find an answer to is,

is fasting cleansing disciplining important to been able to confess with a sincere heart, and also for the aid in helping the blesser, who may also need to fast, for the removal of such a person with such a bad spirit befor they can be saved.

My other train of sport is fasting cleansing disaplin are all act people practised befor anyone had received the holy spirit, in the bible,

However there does seem be suggestion that they are needed also before recieving the spirit, in some cases or certain cases, or lack of believe or sincerity or disaplin, is it first the the Jew then the Gentile ?.

Happy_hobnob · Mar 22, 2023

I will be back after an in-depth study with my findings. And maybe ask a quick question in-between. Thankyou all once again lovely to be here.

ResidentAlien · Mar 22, 2023

Just make baptism go hand-in-hand with believing and there should be no problem. That's the example that was left for us and that's what we should do. Whenever someone believes in the Lord and turns to Him just baptize them as soon as possible; it's not rocket science.

Happy_hobnob · Mar 22, 2023

I witnessed his baptism 6 months ago. Which was performed in a blow up plastic tub.

The pastor was in the middle of the tub, he asked Ben to come in,

He then placed both hands upon his shoulders and asked do you believe Jesus Christ is your lord and saviour with a sincere heart who died for your sins and rose again. yes my friends said. The pastor then said do you confess your sins Before God with a sincere heart and believe Jesus is your lord and saviour, Ben yes with all my heart I believe and confess all my wrong doings, The pastor asked do you welcome the lord Jesus into your life with all sincerity, Ben said yes with all my heart I do and with all my heart I want to recieve the holy spirit. The pastor then ducked my friend into the water.
When he rose, the pastor said welcome to the family go in peace.

Happy_hobnob · Mar 22, 2023

Remembering the baptism some more, he was ducked under the water for at least ten seconds, and there was a little struggle from Ben he flapped his hands on top of the water Befor coming up

Pilgrimshope · Mar 22, 2023

VARob said:

yeah that scripture is true the problem is so are all the others that surround and explain it just in that sentance though

to confess Jesus as lord means something when you confess someone your lord eventually someone that believes and confesses Jesus as lord has to let what their lord said about being saved be what they believe and follow after

what I mean is of course that scripture is true “ if you confess Jesus as lord and believe in the heart God raised him from the dead Thou shalt be saved.”

eventually that person needs to go meet Jesus who they are confessing as lord and hear what he’s saying about eternal life , forgiveness of sin , salvation , ect

because they are confessing him as lord
they need to hear this now being a believer in him for salvation

The question is is Jesus really our lord or isn’t he ? And are we willing to accept his words over what we already conclude before we hear his words because he’s our lord who came to save us and tell us the truth of God

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭

If they believe and truly accept Jesus as lord that kind of thing that he said when he was here with us is going to be the word of thier lord we can’t just say it haphazardly and live as if we have no lord or are our own lord we have to mean the confession from the heart having a lord means we are subject to his rule and need to hear and believe what he said about eternal life , salvation death ect

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Just agreeing with a verse hear and there doesn’t change the rest of the Bible is the point all the single verses are true but they are just sentences in a substantial message of salvstion all of it works together

Even this part is true and works towards our salvation if we accept it

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

my point is it’s good to say we believe in Jesus and confess him as lord but when we do that we now need to take that statement seriously as if we now have a lord and God is now with us we need to actually live like we believe is the idea

Happy_hobnob · Mar 22, 2023

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

It seems nobody had received the holy spirit at the time mark 9.29 had been spoken not even the disciples, it seems then if your understanding is accurate the decippes who where fasting would also have been weaker

Your understanding is you've always thought that mark 9.29 only referred to the decipels and not the person who needed deliverance, but theres no clear instruction exactly to say it was, for one side or the other,

Happy_hobnob · Mar 22, 2023

Anybody have any idea why the word fasting is missing in most translations of mark 9.29
The KJV quotes
29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

Niv quotes
Mark 9:29 NIV. He replied, “This kind can come out only by prayer.”

Many other translation have the word fasting missing of mark 9.29.

Happy_hobnob · Mar 22, 2023

I can understand that prayer would have been for the decipels as the person with a bad spirit would not have been able to pray, but what about fasting. Why has this been left out by other translations,. Was fasting also for the person who had a bad spirit, and other translations didn't agree with that.

Happy_hobnob · Mar 22, 2023

Or is it possible the person with the bad spirit would have been able to pray, as it is thought some people are not aware they have a bad spirit, very confusing please read my 4 posts above

2ndTimeIsTheCharm · Mar 22, 2023

Happy_hobnob said:

Remember? The disciples were not fasting at all while Jesus was still with them. I don't know where you got the idea that they were fasting at that time.

Also, you wrote this:

Happy_hobnob said:

I looked up the New Living Translation, and it does NOT have "...and fasting." in it.

Mark 9:29 NLT Jesus replied, “This kind can be cast out only by prayer.”

Link to the verse at Bible Gateway: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+9:29&version=NLT

Maybe you were thinking of another translation?

-=<>=-

I also don't know why you keep insisting that your poor friend should fast. He's already suffering and fasting would just make things worse for him. I don't know if you're even qualified to help him either as you keep getting your Biblical teaching mixed up.

If you truly want you friend to be healed, you actually need a real Christian who is strong in the faith and knows how to do a proper deliverance.

Here's some that you might want to consider. I personally don't know them though. I urge you to find other Christians that may be able to help your friend. Please don't take this matter into your own hands or that of your friend:

❧

glf · Mar 22, 2023

Baptism
Heb 6:1, 2 KJV "Therefore leaving the principals of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

1 Cor 1: 13-16 KJV "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized into the name of Paul? I think God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that that I had baptized in my own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other."

1 Cor 15: 29 KJV "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead."

1 Cor 1: 13-16 shows us that water baptism was a common practice for the early Church faithful. It even appears that they performed proxy baptisms for those who were martyred before they could be baptized as I sure they kept the baptismal services hidden due to their persecution. We can also see that the early Church practiced water baptism because Paul wasn't called of the Lord Jesus until after Jesus had been resurrected and ascended, so that even though Paul tells us that he wasn't sent to baptize, he did it anyways. Thus, I cannot understand how anyone could call water baptism only an OT rite.
In Heb 6, Paul calls: repentance of dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms (plural), and of laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment, to be the principals of the doctrine of Christ. (Note; regarding the above: Repentance and faith are of the individual, and where baptisms and laying of hands are of the Church, and resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment deals with the Church's ministry.) I would agree that when we turned to the Lord, the Holy Spirit baptized us into the body of Christ and , I suspect that because of its surpassing glory is the baptism referred to in the passage that tells us, there is "one baptism." And since more than one baptism is found in the principals of the doctrine of Christ, the second would have to be water baptism. Are we raised in the newness of life to follow the Spirit in the OT?
There is no curse of death for every act of disobedience in the New Covenant. So, I would have to agree that water baptism is not a condition of salvation, but rather the 1st act of obedience in a new believer. A public declaration of death to oneself and to ever follow after the Spirit.

Happy_hobnob · Mar 22, 2023

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

Remember? The disciples were not fasting at all while Jesus was still with them. I don't know where you got the idea that they were fasting at that time.

Also, you wrote this:

I looked up the New Living Translation, and it does NOT have "...and fasting." in it.

Mark 9:29 NLT Jesus replied, “This kind can be cast out only by prayer.”

Link to the verse at Bible Gateway: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+9:29&version=NLT

Maybe you were thinking of another translation?

-=<>=-

I also don't know why you keep insisting that your poor friend should fast. He's already suffering and fasting would just make things worse for him. I don't know if you're even qualified to help him either as you keep getting your Biblical teaching mixed up.

If you truly want you friend to be healed, you actually need a real Christian who is strong in the faith and knows how to do a proper deliverance.

Here's some that you might want to consider. I personally don't know them though. I urge you to find other Christians that may be able to help your friend. Please don't take this matter into your own hands or that of your friend:

❧

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you.

What part of this verse is missing ?

Happy_hobnob · Mar 22, 2023

glf said:

Baptism
Heb 6:1, 2 KJV "Therefore leaving the principals of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

1 Cor 1: 13-16 KJV "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized into the name of Paul? I think God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that that I had baptized in my own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other."

1 Cor 15: 29 KJV "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead."

1 Cor 1: 13-16 shows us that water baptism was a common practice for the early Church faithful. It even appears that they performed proxy baptisms for those who were martyred before they could be baptized as I sure they kept the baptismal services hidden due to their persecution. We can also see that the early Church practiced water baptism because Paul wasn't called of the Lord Jesus until after Jesus had been resurrected and ascended, so that even though Paul tells us that he wasn't sent to baptize, he did it anyways. Thus, I cannot understand how anyone could call water baptism only an OT rite.
In Heb 6, Paul calls: repentance of dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms (plural), and of laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment, to be the principals of the doctrine of Christ. (Note; regarding the above: Repentance and faith are of the individual, and where baptisms and laying of hands are of the Church, and resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment deals with the Church's ministry.) I would agree that when we turned to the Lord, the Holy Spirit baptized us into the body of Christ and , I suspect that because of its surpassing glory is the baptism referred to in the passage that tells us, there is "one baptism." And since more than one baptism is found in the principals of the doctrine of Christ, the second would have to be water baptism. Are we raised in the newness of life to follow the Spirit in the OT?
There is no curse of death for every act of disobedience in the New Covenant. So, I would have to agree that water baptism is not a condition of salvation, but rather the 1st act of obedience in a new believer. A public declaration of death to oneself and to ever follow after the Spirit.

So important was baptism in water to be done correctly.
I read that people who had been baptized in water the wrong way had to be re-baptized in water in the lords name.

Happy_hobnob · Mar 22, 2023

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

Remember? The disciples were not fasting at all while Jesus was still with them. I don't know where you got the idea that they were fasting at that time.

Also, you wrote this:

I looked up the New Living Translation, and it does NOT have "...and fasting." in it.

Mark 9:29 NLT Jesus replied, “This kind can be cast out only by prayer.”

Link to the verse at Bible Gateway: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+9:29&version=NLT

Maybe you were thinking of another translation?

-=<>=-

I also don't know why you keep insisting that your poor friend should fast. He's already suffering and fasting would just make things worse for him. I don't know if you're even qualified to help him either as you keep getting your Biblical teaching mixed up.

If you truly want you friend to be healed, you actually need a real Christian who is strong in the faith and knows how to do a proper deliverance.

Here's some that you might want to consider. I personally don't know them though. I urge you to find other Christians that may be able to help your friend. Please don't take this matter into your own hands or that of your friend:

❧

your miss quoting my understanding and your not understanding what I'm saying.

Happy_hobnob · Mar 22, 2023

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

let's start again zoom in on this screen shot and tell me in how many different translation is the word fasting missing. And please don't assume to know, you know what I intend to do to my friend, but let's forget that for now, and let's be friends.

Now after you have counted up how many different translations have there word fasting missing, could you please acknowledge my question, which is,,, Why is that word missing from those many different translation.

If you don't know the answer. That is fine.

Further more to your assuming response, I have no intentions of performing baptism or advising how to fast, or who should fast, as I am not qualified,

What I would like to find out, is many things, I hope that maybe somebody like yourself could help me to find out.

And I hope you can find the time to do so and then things might be 🌹
Here is the screenshot

2ndTimeIsTheCharm · Mar 23, 2023

Happy_hobnob said:

The phrase "and fasting" is missing from certain translations of Mark 9:29.

The original manuscripts didn't have "and fasting". It was added later on because fasting took on more importance in the early church and wanted to give more weight.

You can read the commentaries about Mark 9:29 and why some translations have it while others don't.

Mark 9:29 Commentaries

So the original manuscripts didn't have "and fasting," therefore certain deliverances can only be done by prayer, and not necessarily fasting.

Have you talked to any Christians that know how to do deliverances? Or even a good pastor? Also consider a doctor or psychiatrist or psychologist (last two are different from each other)? Your friend needs some kind of professional help.

Anyway, I see you can look things up for yourself pretty well. I hope you study the link I provided with all the commentaries.

I'm going to end my part here though because it seems like something is off about this whole interaction and I no longer feel comfortable continuing it.

May God continue to help you with your research though, and I'll definitely keep your friend in my prayers.

❧

Nehemiah6 · Mar 23, 2023

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

How are you so positive that the original manuscripts did not have "and fasting"? This is the same approach as that of the modern critics who made hundreds of omissions because they opined that the corrupt manuscripts were "the best". And their only grounds for this was that those were the oldest. But Scrivener -- who was the master of textual criticism -- said that the worst corruptions occurred in the earlier manuscripts.

Happy_hobnob · Mar 23, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

This a good question, but I don't understand why it would have been added, as the bible teaches us let nobody add or take away from scripture.

Then I don't understand why Jesus would need to fast either.

Baptizing

Well-known member

Active member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member

Active member

Active member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member

Active member

Active member

Active member

Active member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Active member