The Young Messiah

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You can omit "weaknesses", since Christ was always both fully God and fully sinless man. That would automatically preclude weaknesses. The temptations were external, but there was nothing within Christ to respond to them. We can speculate all we want, but God would prefer that we do not speculate on the early years of Christ. The Gnostics did their foolish speculations and come up with some fantasies about Jesus of Nazareth. They also promoted some serious heresies.

Alright calm down officer, there's no need to get nitpicky over one word. I wasn't veering off the road into Gnosticism or denying
Jesus' unique 100% God / 100% man status. All I mean is this;

2 Philippians ~
5
Adopt the same attitude as that of Christ Jesus,
6
who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be exploited.[a]
7
Instead he emptied himself
by assuming the form of a servant,
taking on the likeness of humanity.
And when he had come as a man,
8
he humbled himself by becoming obedient
to the point of death—
even to death on a cross.

 

[cv5]

You can omit "weaknesses", since Christ was always both fully God and fully sinless man. That would automatically preclude weaknesses. The temptations were external, but there was nothing within Christ to respond to them. We can speculate all we want, but God would prefer that we do not speculate on the early years of Christ. The Gnostics did their foolish speculations and come up with some fantasies about Jesus of Nazareth. They also promoted some serious heresies.

Limitations. Vulnerabilities. Fragility. Hunger. Thirst. Exhaustion. Physical pain. Adams nature.

But no moral or spiritual weakness whatsoever, nor inclination toward sin. God's nature.

 

[Nehemiah6]

All I mean is this;

That was meekness not weakness. Christ laid aside His glory and majesty and humbled Himself voluntarily. That is amazing in and of itself.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

That was meekness not weakness. Christ laid aside His glory and majesty and humbled Himself voluntarily. That is amazing in and of itself.

Of course it's amazing. But you are quibbling. Why are you making such a big deal over the word "weakness"
I have explained what I meant.

His body wasn't impervious to injury. If it were, he could not have been killed as he was.

He came as an infant, placed in the care of his parents. They took him to Egypt to save his life.
He didn't use a supernatural method to transport himself there and back.

He was tempted in the same ways we are.

 

[Evmur]

.
● Matt 13:55 . . Is not this the carpenter's son?

● Mark 6:3 . . Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary

There lacks a consensus among scholars as to the correct translation of the
Greek word, but for sure it applies to artificers, i.e. folks who work with their
hands to make useful things, viz: craftsmen.

I think it's safe to assume Jesus learned the skills of his trade from Joseph,
and was employed in them up until the time of his calling at thirty years of
age. (Luke 3:21-23) In other words; young Jesus was capable of earning his
own living and/or contributing to the family's livelihood, viz: we have to
believe he was a good son.

● 1Tim 5:8 . . But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of
his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
(cf. Mark 7:10-13)

Even at the point of death, Jesus was thinking of his mom. (John 19:25-27)
_

... do you think He might have fashioned His own cross ?

 

[Nehemiah6]

... do you think He might have fashioned His own cross ?

Absolutely not. The Romans constructed those crosses, since that was their punishment for criminals.

 

[PaulThomson]

Was God unqualified to judge mankind until He had taken humanity on Himself?
When Christ is making intercession for us in heaven, what does that look like?
is it, "you don't understand, God, but I've been there"?

Can He not relate to a heroin addict until He has also been addicted to heroin? can only the poor help the poor, or a sinner help others out of sin?

this is the common explanation, but I feel like this explanation gets absurd quickly when I explore it.




this makes more sense to me.
That a priest is chosen from among the people, because a priest is an intermediary representing the people.

Hebrews is overwhelmingly priesthood / legal context - when it says He is able to comfort us in every way it is because He has faced every test we have faced, without sin.

He doesn't comfort us by saying 'yeah that was hard for me too bro hang in there' - which after all is small comfort, isn't it? - but by saying this is the way, walk in it, and by taking our place: He being victorious and perfect where I fail and stumble.

God could simply say, "I am God. What I say and how I judge ia always correct. And I simply assert correctly, being infallible as God, that man was not created with a design flaw that made sin inevitable. Those could have avoided sin but did not and were therefore justly condemned, and they efused to put their trust in the lifeline of Christ and so they remain justly condemned to suffer the second death. But these could have avoided sin but did not and were therefore justly condemned, and they put their trust in the lifeline of Christ and so were justified and delivered from suffering the second death.

But maybe God would rather demonstrate to us that His original design was not flawed - by taking the exact limited form of the first Adam and by resorting to grace and successfully remaining in godly faith despite the many temptations to which others caved - thus proving that our sins were our own fault caused by our own unbelief, and we are therefore genuinely culpable for our falling short of the glory for which God had designed us.

 

[PaulThomson]

You can omit "weaknesses", since Christ was always both fully God and fully sinless man. That would automatically preclude weaknesses. The temptations were external, but there was nothing within Christ to respond to them. We can speculate all we want, but God would prefer that we do not speculate on the early years of Christ. The Gnostics did their foolish speculations and come up with some fantasies about Jesus of Nazareth. They also promoted some serious heresies.

There was nothing in Adam to respond to temptation either. God told Cain, before Cain sinned, "Sin is crouching at the door. It wants to master you, but you must master it." It was Eve's and Adam's and Cain's first sins that opened the door to sin to enter in and master each of them from within. Paul also says in Romans 7 that as a child, before the law was taught to him, without the law sin lay dead. vv. 9-10. But when the commandment came , sin came alive in him, and Saul died v. 9. Sin, that had been crouching at the door waiting to enter, seized an opportunity through the commandment, deceived Saul and killed him v. 11. After sin had entered through that first yielding to it, Saul found that although his mind agreed with the law, sin now in him, did the sin v. 17 against his will v. 18-23. Jesus, however, did not open the door to sin as Adam and Eve had, and so kept sin outside on the doorstep so that Satan had nothing in Him.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There was nothing in Adam to respond to temptation either.

Evidently the written record shows otherwise. Eve was tempted by the three main "lusts" but Adam was not deceived, yet sinned. That is all we can say.

 

[evyaniy]

was there even more to it? did the Creator desire to become part of His creation to share it and love those He created and be loved in return? was He revealing His character and attributes and qualities of love and mercy and longsuffering and righteousness and justice and faithfulness and obedience and faith and goodness and humility to us through the Son and what He did to save us? Did He desire to elevate those He created to fellow Heirs of creation Who would share in the Divine nature and eternal life through His Son?

 

[posthuman]

God could simply say, "I am God. What I say and how I judge ia always correct. And I simply assert correctly, being infallible as God, that man was not created with a design flaw that made sin inevitable. Those could have avoided sin but did not and were therefore justly condemned, and they efused to put their trust in the lifeline of Christ and so they remain justly condemned to suffer the second death. But these could have avoided sin but did not and were therefore justly condemned, and they put their trust in the lifeline of Christ and so were justified and delivered from suffering the second death.

But maybe God would rather demonstrate to us that His original design was not flawed - by taking the exact limited form of the first Adam and by resorting to grace and successfully remaining in godly faith despite the many temptations to which others caved - thus proving that our sins were our own fault caused by our own unbelief, and we are therefore genuinely culpable for our falling short of the glory for which God had designed us.

free will is not a "design flaw" it is the perfect intention of a perfect Creator.

but if the advent of the Messiah only serves to demonstrate that any ordinary human can exercise their free will to perfectly keep themselves from ever sinning if they simply try hard enough, then the Messiah serves no purpose at all - the Law was already present saying "do this and live" and His being born of a virgin is both completely unnecessary and meaningless.

 

[posthuman]

There was nothing in Adam to respond to temptation either. God told Cain, before Cain sinned, "Sin is crouching at the door. It wants to master you, but you must master it." It was Eve's and Adam's and Cain's first sins that opened the door to sin to enter in and master each of them from within. Paul also says in Romans 7 that as a child, before the law was taught to him, without the law sin lay dead. vv. 9-10. But when the commandment came , sin came alive in him, and Saul died v. 9. Sin, that had been crouching at the door waiting to enter, seized an opportunity through the commandment, deceived Saul and killed him v. 11. After sin had entered through that first yielding to it, Saul found that although his mind agreed with the law, sin now in him, did the sin v. 17 against his will v. 18-23. Jesus, however, did not open the door to sin as Adam and Eve had, and so kept sin outside on the doorstep so that Satan had nothing in Him.

Woman was deceived, and sinned - and Adam was not deceived, but freely chose sin fully aware of what he was doing. and Satan also, was 'perfect' until sin was found in him - yet God isn't the author of sin.

where then does it come from, and why is Christ born of a virgin, not having blood that comes from any human father?

 

[evyaniy]

it is hard to imagine the Creator having the attribute of obedience. after all Who would He ever have to be obedient to? Is that why He had to learn obedience as the Son even to the point of death on the cross? Hebrew 5 and Philippians 2

The Law was primarily to and about the Son. It was His path to life through His obedience in giving His life to save us as the Law and His Father required of Him. The Law and the sacrifices foreshadow what He would do to save us. That aspect of the Law is mostly overlooked since the Scriptures are somewhat quiet about it which allows the Spirit to reveal it as He pleases.

The promise of life in the Law to the Man Who fully kept the Law was to the Son. He is the only One Who could accomplish it because of what it required of Him and Who He is.

 

[evyaniy]

It would seem that faith is another attribute that He learned and exercised as the Son in trusting His Father and the promise of life to Him in the law. That is also why it is so important to understand that the Father raised Him back to life again according to the promise to the Son which He(the Son) had His faith in.

That is also why knowing Psalm 119 is the Son's prayer for life and to be raised from the dead to life again because of His obedience to the law and His Father in offering His life to save us. As the Psalm shows us, He was exercising His faith as a Man in His Father and the promise to Him that He would live even though He had to die to save us.

He did not neglect to pray for Life according to the promise and the law and the word and the Father's justice and His Father's righteousness and His mercy and His faithfulness and so much more. He asked for life at least 16 times in Psalm 119 and of course was heard and answered because of His reverent fear and obedience as Hebrews tells us.

 

[evyaniy]

this old thread has some resurrection Life in it.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Also the Jews who were enemies of Christ clearly understood that "Son of God" meant that Christ is God, and they deemed this to be "blasphemy".

Amen they understood Jesus was claiming to be the one the prophets had foretold should come and take the rule over all of them

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”( god with us )
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭

“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, When his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭2:6-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they knew who Jesus was claiming to be well it’s why they rejected him it would have meant the king had arrived and would have made them subject to his law and declaration and all thier Scripture had witnessed this day

The corrupt religious system was at its end and they knew it this would have stripped thier power over the people

 

[posthuman]

it is hard to imagine the Creator having the attribute of obedience. after all Who would He ever have to be obedient to? Is that why He had to learn obedience as the Son even to the point of death on the cross? Hebrew 5 and Philippians 2

The Law was primarily to and about the Son. It was His path to life through His obedience in giving His life to save us as the Law and His Father required of Him. The Law and the sacrifices foreshadow what He would do to save us. That aspect of the Law is mostly overlooked since the Scriptures are somewhat quiet about it which allows the Spirit to reveal it as He pleases.

The promise of life in the Law to the Man Who fully kept the Law was to the Son. He is the only One Who could accomplish it because of what it required of Him and Who He is.

i think it is more correct to say the Law is descriptive of the Son than "to" the Son. He is omniscient, perfect God, taking on humanity in order to redeem us to Himself.
The Law is "to" us ((as instruction)) and "toward" the Son ((as a destination)) - - He "learned" obedience not in that it was a foreign, unknown concept to Him, as though He was formerly "disobedient" but in that He "apprehended" or "took hold of" obedience, that He "was in the habit of" and "practiced" obedience.



this He did both to be a pattern for us and to be our substitionary, atoning Lamb.

 

[evyaniy]

i think it is more correct to say the Law is descriptive of the Son than "to" the Son. He is omniscient, perfect God, taking on humanity in order to redeem us to Himself.
The Law is "to" us ((as instruction)) and "toward" the Son ((as a destination)) - - He "learned" obedience not in that it was a foreign, unknown concept to Him, as though He was formerly "disobedient" but in that He "apprehended" or "took hold of" obedience, that He "was in the habit of" and "practiced" obedience.

View attachment 257332

this He did both to be a pattern for us and to be our substitionary, atoning Lamb.

He did it as a Man. He had to do it as a Man to save us and reverse what Adam had done.

 

[evyaniy]

Romans 5

1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with EL through our Adonai Yeshua the Messiah; 2 through Whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of EL. 3 Not only this, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope doesn’t disappoint us, because EL’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit Who was given to us.
6 For while we were yet weak, at the right time Messiah died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man. Yet perhaps for a good person someone would even dare to die. 8 But EL commends His Own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Messiah died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we will be saved from EL’s wrath through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to EL through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we will be saved by His life.
11 Not only so, but we also rejoice in EL through our Adonai Yeshua the Messiah, through Whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death passed to all men because all sinned. 13 For until the law, sin was in the world; but sin is not charged when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those whose sins weren’t like Adam’s disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of Him Who was to come.
15 But the free gift isn’t like the trespass. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of EL and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Yeshua the Messiah, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not as through one who sinned; for the judgment came by one to condemnation, but the free gift followed many trespasses to justification. 17 For if by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; so much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the One, Yeshua the Messiah.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One, many will be made righteous. 20 The law came in that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace abounded more exceedingly, 21 that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Yeshua the Messiah our Adonai.

 

[evyaniy]

Philippians 2

5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Messiah Yeshua, 6 Who, existing in the form of EL, didn’t consider equality with EL a thing to be grasped(held on to), 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a Servant, being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.