Ukraine the bad guy?

[HeIsHere]

Sorry to hear of your irrational yet heartfelt anguish in this matter. And don't worry, your unfounded insults and accusations really do not affect me in any meaningful way. And I am perfectly willing to forgive and forget.

Having said that.....I perceive that there is yet to be heard one word or gesture (let alone sentiment) toward the URGENT NECESSITY for peace negotiations, an immediate cease fire, or good-faith rapprochement. From you, @Angela53510 , @Gideon300 @Susanna etc.

On the contrary, it appears that you (and they) are wholly possessed with ambitions to overthrow Russia and depose Putin.
If this is the case.....then expect a lot more destruction and bloodshed. And good luck because you are going to need it.

BTW, it is absolutely true that Putin has a penchant for liquidating his political enemies, and has done so many times. But so have the Clintons. In fact in this regard they are probably pretty much "even Steven". Never forget that.

Exactly!!

Thank you!!

 

[JohnDB]

Sorry to hear of your irrational yet heartfelt anguish in this matter. And don't worry, your unfounded insults and accusations really do not affect me in any meaningful way. And I am perfectly willing to forgive and forget.

Having said that.....I perceive that there is yet to be heard one word or gesture (let alone sentiment) toward the URGENT NECESSITY for peace negotiations, an immediate cease fire, or good-faith rapprochement. From you, @Angela53510 , @Gideon300 @Susanna etc.

On the contrary, it appears that you (and they) are wholly possessed with ambitions to overthrow Russia and depose Putin.
If this is the case.....then expect a lot more destruction and bloodshed. And good luck because you are going to need it.

BTW, it is absolutely true that Putin has a penchant for liquidating his political enemies, and has done so many times. But so have the Clintons. In fact in this regard they are probably pretty much "even Steven". Never forget that.

I'm irrational?
Uhhhhh....you really have left the sphere of rationality and logic.

Ukraine is a sovereign nation.
They have been invaded and occupied by another nation.

We have an agreement to help them if they were ever attacked. (We are)

You sound like a motorboat with your "but, but, but" of excuses as to why the USA should be liars and dealbreakers

 

[Beckie]

I'm irrational?
Uhhhhh....you really have left the sphere of rationality and logic.

Ukraine is a sovereign nation.
They have been invaded and occupied by another nation.

We have an agreement to help them if they were ever attacked. (We are)

You sound like a motorboat with your "but, but, but" of excuses as to why the USA should be liars and dealbreakers

John you know the USA government are liars... Just wish the heads of states would shoot each other instead of making war of the people

 

[shittim]

This is a former U.S. Colonel on the history of the Ukrainian territory question.

 

[SomeDisciple]

You sound like a motorboat with your "but, but, but" of excuses as to why the USA should be liars and dealbreakers

We were probably already liars and deal-breakers because of John McCain; the more I look at what he did in 2014, the more I recognize that we would not tolerate a foreign politician doing that in the United States: bad mouthing the government and rallying with revolutionaries. It looks like political intervention to me- which we promised not to do.

It looks increasingly more obvious to me that the Neo-Ukrainian government is not "Ukraine". What we are supporting in Ukraine is not "democracy" what we are supporting is actually "violent revolution".

 

[ButterflyJones]

Thanks for this link! I got it in a Ukrainian group I am part of, and the source was not referenced, because the group has a rule against any links!

That's odd given any information shared from a source other than the member posting must be attributed to the source.

 

[cv5]

But so have the Clintons. In fact in this regard they are probably pretty much "even Steven". Never forget that.

If you add in the supposed hypothetical worst-case conspiracy theories into the calculus.....we would then conclude perhaps worse than "even Steven".

But its a close race by any measure....

 

[Gideon300]

Totally agree with you regarding Canada and Trudy. 100%. It is morphing into a semi-dictatorship. By far the most corrupt admin in all of Canadian history. And the entire cabinet is guilty as hell and in on it.

But as for Ukraine/Russia? There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that there would have been no outright war/invasion if Ukraine remained neutral and the groundwork/rearmament for war were not prepared by the West. Ukrainians were a tool of the West and Europe got a punch in the face by the US/Britian.

Russia (a thoroughly corrupt oppressive regime though it is) primarily wants to do business. Make money. Improve their living standards. And yes, build up their military. They have several fragile pipelines going thru Ukraine, and NS 1 & 2 to Europe. This war never was and is not now within their interest. But they are going to take land and booty now that it is underway. This is the way of war. But the primary objective is to force terms for peace that include neutrality for Ukraine. Perfectly understandable under the circumstances.

Understandable? Inexcusable, more like it. I suppose you would approve of the USA invading Mexico. After all, Mexican drug gangs are a threat to Americans, it is the entry point for illegals and the Mexican government seems powerless to do anything about it. While we are at it, how about America giving back the lands it took by force, including Texas and Hawaii?

You have either a lack of knowledge or a selective view of history. Ukraine became independent when the former USSR fell apart. Ukraine had nuclear weapons. They were coerced into giving them up, a serious error in light of present events. Ukraine was given security guarantees. Such promises meant nothing in 2014.

Putin has said publicly that the break up of the USSR was a catastrophe. He has demonstrated that he intends to restore Russia to its former glory. Russia wants to do business? They should have stayed behind their own borders. That would have been a good start.

 

[cv5]

Understandable? Inexcusable, more like it. I suppose you would approve of the USA invading Mexico. After all, Mexican drug gangs are a threat to Americans, it is the entry point for illegals and the Mexican government seems powerless to do anything about it. While we are at it, how about America giving back the lands it took by force, including Texas and Hawaii?

You have either a lack of knowledge or a selective view of history. Ukraine became independent when the former USSR fell apart. Ukraine had nuclear weapons. They were coerced into giving them up, a serious error in light of present events. Ukraine was given security guarantees. Such promises meant nothing in 2014.

Putin has said publicly that the break up of the USSR was a catastrophe. He has demonstrated that he intends to restore Russia to its former glory. Russia wants to do business? They should have stayed behind their own borders. That would have been a good start.

Perfecly understandable .... if you are Russian.

A mutually beneficial peace will never be achieved if everyone refuses to acknowledge BOTH the Russian and Ukrainian points of view.

Endless war rhetoric will only lead to.....endless war.

 

[JohnDB]

John you know the USA government are liars... Just wish the heads of states would shoot each other instead of making war of the people

Congress is the ones that approve treaties or votes to break them.

Biden has nothing to do with following the laws that Congress makes.

Congress makes laws, sets tax code, votes on budgets too.

You can blame particular people but it was the Republicans who voted in the treaty. Republicans under Newt created this treaty. Currently Republicans again are leading Congress and could break the treaty if so inclined. So....

Whine to your congressman....it doesn't apply if you are an Orc employed by Wagner mercs....but whatever right?

 

[Beckie]

Congress is the ones that approve treaties or votes to break them.

Biden has nothing to do with following the laws that Congress makes.

Congress makes laws, sets tax code, votes on budgets too.

You can blame particular people but it was the Republicans who voted in the treaty. Republicans under Newt created this treaty. Currently Republicans again are leading Congress and could break the treaty if so inclined. So....

Whine to your congressman....it doesn't apply if you are an Orc employed by Wagner mercs....but whatever right?

Biden has nothing to do with following the laws that Congress makes.

no kidding?

 

[JohnDB]

Biden has nothing to do with following the laws that Congress makes.

no kidding?

No kidding....

When Russia invaded and stole Crimea congress could have acted then to send Ukraine aide then. But they didn't. Could have anytime since the invasion in 2014.

Biden made an executive directive for the military to provide the aide dictated by law.

 

[gb9]

No kidding....

When Russia invaded and stole Crimea congress could have acted then to send Ukraine aide then. But they didn't. Could have anytime since the invasion in 2014.

Biden made an executive directive for the military to provide the aide dictated by law.

and this gov. has done that very thing in every conflict since w w 2...

 

[cv5]

No kidding....

When Russia invaded and stole Crimea congress could have acted then to send Ukraine aide then. But they didn't. Could have anytime since the invasion in 2014.

Biden made an executive directive for the military to provide the aide dictated by law.

Check the wayback machine and you will discover that the annexation of Crimea took place AFTER the (cough cough) "Revolution of Dignity".

That may or may not assuage your umbrage and anguish a little, depending upon your perception of "the enemy".

 

[JohnDB]

Check the wayback machine and you will discover that the annexation of Crimea took place AFTER the (cough cough) "Revolution of Dignity".

That may or may not assuage your umbrage and anguish a little, depending upon your perception of "the enemy".

Many many Crimean young men joined the Ukraine military after escaping Russian occupation.

Then those who escaped Russian occupation (because Russia was going to conscript them into working for free....AKA slavery....their homes were confiscated and given to Asian people whom Russia is prejudiced against as a final insult to those "traitors" who escaped Russian occupation.

And now a word about how Russia is very afraid of the incoming new equipment and trained troops....

 

[cv5]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1646565379789946898

 

[cv5]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1647623920974020608

 

[cv5]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1647629819063029762

 

[JohnDB]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1646565379789946898

For whatever reason you think it's pertinent....lose it.

We are contractually obligated to give them aide. No different than if you sold your house to another family and throwing a fit because they changed out the appliances. They can do with their stuff as they want to. If they don't hang on to it it's THEIR problem not ours. The stuff given to Ukraine is inventoried as it leaves American custody and is signed for by the Ukranians.

Their problems are their problems.

 

[JohnDB]

And Russia is cowering in the face of Ukraine having good equipment and well trained troops. They are ready to negotiate...Ukraine is unwilling until Russia leaves Crimea.