Works of the Law

ThyKingdomComeSoon · Apr 23, 2023

Brother Nehemia, I agree that works do not produce salvation, however they are important as explained in Matt 5:16 ""Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. James explained that works are important also see verses below;

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Personally I want to do the works that the Lord permits me to do I think it is important.

Blessings

studentoftheword · Apr 23, 2023

Mem said:

Not that Simple -----Many believe in what you say here and are not Born Again ------Just believing in something doesn't mean you accept it as truth and trust what it says ------

We may believe Jesus took all sickness and disease with Him on the cross as the scriptures says but that does not means that sickness and disease is void from our Lives -----it takes a more deeper belief and trust in what the Word says than just a belief ----

TMS · Apr 23, 2023

mailmandan said:

You have already stated many times that i am believing in salvation by faith and works. I will openly say that faith and works can not really be seperated in the life of a true christian. I've said many times that the motive for works is what seperates legalism and true love.

mailmandan said:

Be careful your judging my motives for doing Gods will.
When we are told "if you love me keep My commandments".

Should we obey our Lord or not? Should we do His will or not?
Many people have died for their faith.

When i proclaim obedience i am doing the same as many bible verses.

2Pe 2:20-21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

TMS · Apr 23, 2023

The question was asked " how does someone know they are born again"

Nehemiah6 said:

The principle of being born again is about "starting a new life" and ending the current life.
To die to the current flesh controled life, and be born as new person that is controlled by the Holy Spirit.
You give your heart to Jesus 100%, give up the old life and live a Spirit filled life.

My question is, " does a Spirit filled life keep the moral laws of God?"
Gods laws reflect Gods character. If Jesus fills us and we are acting like Jesus, will we act keep the law?

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

gb9 · Apr 23, 2023

Aaron56 said:

it's the idea of " o k God, i have been doing this,

TMS said:

when Jesus said this, He was referring to what Hen said while on Earth.

as at the end of Matthew, He said " teaching the things i have commanded you...

He always separated what He said and what The Father said.

Trinity. learn it.

Aaron56 · Apr 23, 2023

gb9 said:

PM me if you need help getting over legalism and thinking the Law (including the 10 Commandments) are the guide for the believer.

gb9 · Apr 23, 2023

Aaron56 said:

i do not think that, but thanks for the offer!

Inquisitor · Apr 23, 2023

TMS said:

A person can only ever be saved by the atonement that Jesus accomplished.

No matter how obedient you could ever be, that atonement that Jesus put forth, will be the only reason you are saved.

You cannot generate any righteousness of your own, no matter how holy you think you are.

No one is saying that works, or obedience, or love, is not necessary.

What we are saying is that Jesus is the sole reason for your salvation.

Get your doctrine in order, Jesus first and last in everything.

Inquisitor · Apr 23, 2023

ThyKingdomComeSoon said:

Brother Nehemia, I agree that works do not produce salvation, however they are important as explained in Matt 5:16 ""Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. James explained that works are important also see verses below;

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Personally I want to do the works that the Lord permits me to do I think it is important.

Blessings

James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

Goliath · Apr 24, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Well there have been others like you, that didn't see the need to repent.
The outcome

Cameron143 said:

Actually my discernment was right on track. I was demonstrating (Revelation 9:17-21), (How difficult it is to get one to repent) to some my brothers. You see, in that passage, God does all these horrible things to people, much like You, Ted and Nehemiah, and yet they still refused to repent. So really didn't expect to honor my request, requested out of my love for you. My point to them was, If God isn't able to make men repent, by doing all of this to them, why should we waste our lives on people like you, who take two minutes out of their day to confess their sins before God, to see if you are telling the truth.

(Revelation 9:17-21)
And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Goliath · Apr 24, 2023

Goliath said:

Well there have been others like you, that didn't see the need to repent.
The outcome

Actually my discernment was right on track. I was demonstrating (Revelation 9:17-21), (How difficult it is to get one to repent) to some of my brothers. You see, in that passage, God does all these horrible things to people, much like You, Ted and Nehemiah, and yet they still refused to repent. So I really didn't expect you to honor my request, requested out of my love for you. My point to them was, If God isn't able to make men repent, by doing all of this to them, why should we waste our lives on people like you, who can not take two minutes out of their day to confess their sins before God, to see if you are telling the truth.

(Revelation 9:17-21)
And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Meant to preview this and accidentally posted it. Made the corrections in this version.

Goliath · Apr 24, 2023

When I am feeling defeated, unable to get a brother to repent, Them saying.."We are not under the Law, and need not repent", the Lord brings to mind what he told Lazarus...
(Luke 16:19-31)
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

But still, out of love...I still try and fail.

Goliath · Apr 24, 2023

Can any of you explain why Jesus told the seven churches To Repent in Revelation?
These people were in the church, and yet they surely had repented according to your definition, so why were they still be instructed to Repent, as we have instructed you??

Needevidence · Apr 24, 2023

Yes its clear that we need to repent and works is also needed not only faith & there has to be some law - otherwise if no law, there can be no sin and therefore no need to repent. Basically, do what you want as long as you believe.

But than would have Jesus said the following; Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

mailmandan · Apr 24, 2023

TMS said:

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

This statement below from your previous post implies that both faith and works are the root of salvation:

To be saved from the flood they needed to believe and obey, to be saved from Egypt and be passed over, (last plague), they needed to believe and obey. To be part of God's people at the end we need to believe and obey.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated his faith and saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17)

God told Moses and Aaron to instruct the Israelites to paint blood on their door posts. This signified their faith in God's warning and marked them out from the pagan Egyptians; when the angel of death passed through Egypt he would pass over the doors marked with blood (hence the name, "Passover") without killing the firstborn males who lived within those houses.

Obedience is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers. So to be part of God's people at the end, just how much do we need to obey according to you? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "obedient enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? Does that not imply that we are saved by faith AND obedience/works?

In that same post you also said:

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Those who focus heavy on law keeping, particularly with keeping the 10 commandments from the OT continuously cite verses about keeping the commandments as if that is the basis or means by which we will receive eternal life. (salvation by faith and works) 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him, already saved, demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over - Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. We do not flawlessly obey God's commandments 100% of the time. We are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, but in the eyes of God, believers are seen in the eyes of God as righteous and flawless only because of the righteousness of God which is imputed by faith. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9 etc..)

Finally in that same post, you said:

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Salvation is not a reward that we receive based on works. 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I'm judging based on your words and I've heard your same arguments from others who teach salvation by faith and works so what do you expect me to believe? Keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for the Lord, but is not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

Sure we should obey our Lord after we have been saved through faith, yet there is a difference between doing His will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Obedience that believers produce "after they have been saved through faith" is the fruit of salvation or the means of salvation? Which do you proclaim?

Those who teach salvation by faith and works are typically fond of these verses. I'm sure that "turn from the holy commandments" in verse 21 really jumped out at you, especially if you believe that commandment keeping is the basis or means by which we obtain and/or maintain our salvation.

Now those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:4)

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

Goliath · Apr 24, 2023

Inquisitor said:

You say works comes later,.....but please answer the following three questions after reading the Lords teaching below.... Not for my benefit, but for yours.
(John 14:23)
He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
According to Jesus, must we keep the Lords commandments to show we Love him?
Does God the Father love us, if we don't keep the his commandments?
After reading what Jesus said, Do you still believe God the Father will save those who don't keep his commandments?

A little more persuasion.....Who will be punished?
(2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Goliath · Apr 24, 2023

studentoftheword said:

Goliath said:
How does someone know they have been born again?

I say -----you should feel that a veil has been lifted from your eyes and you see the way you acted before was not the right way -----you should feel a joy that comes into your heart that you cannot explain ----you should feel a peace in your Inner man that was not there before -----the peace you feel in this world is not the same as the peace you should feel when your become Born Again -----it is like a great calmness has taken you over and you feel like a different person --------

The experience is different for each person but there should be a change in you that goes beyond your worldly intellect and you can't explain it exactly but you feel it in your inner self ------

My experience was profound ---for me and I had an immediate Character change ---so drastic that all my family and close friends were astounded at how much I had changed in my moods ---my character ---my outlook on life and my clam and peaceful mannerisms -----I felt so different and I will never go back to the way I was ----as I was a Really hateful ---stubborn ----spoiled person who thought that the world was wrong and I was right in what I did and said ------I hated criticism and would retaliate with a vengeance ------I was never really at peace with myself -----So it was easy for people who knew me to see the change in me ------

Just wanted to say...I have only heard this testimony a few times in the past 20 plus years. Warmed my heart to hear a true testimony of one who has been Born Again. Glad to you're out there Brother!!

Goliath · Apr 24, 2023

Goliath said:

I really have to get in the habit of previewing my post before sending them. My correction noted.

Cameron143 · Apr 24, 2023

Goliath said:

I generally have no shortage of things to repent of. I always know what those things I need to repent of because the Holy Spirit dwelling in me convicts me of sin and leads me into sorrow and repentance.
When people try to convict me of sin, they too should be working in the power of the Holy Spirit if they want me to take them seriously.

Your voice isn't the same as the Shepherd. His voice I know. Your voice sounds nothing like His, although you use some of the same words.
Salvation does not come by the law, but by Christ. And anyone who claims not to sin is deceiving themselves.
Grace and peace.

Goliath · Apr 24, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Well I understand that I can't get you to repent...but maybe I can get you to study who Paul was directing this statement. When you do this study, you will find that Paul was directing them towards the Jews, those who had been under The Law of Moses, the Law in place during their generation...and the many generations who came before them.
I suggest to get a little background, context before reading Paul.
Start in Acts....where the problem began and notice who is preaching the Law of Moses. This is why Paul taught what he did about the Law in his Epistles. The argument continued against these teachers of the Law for the rest of his life. And now....the Gentiles take it to mean Paul was talking about, The Law of Christ.
Study the foundation of Pauls teachings about Works....starting in (Acts 13), then after you have some foundation for Pauls teachings.....go read his epistles again.

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