Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
I am an Apostle by the definition of 1 Corinthians 4:1

The body of Christ is presented in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 as the mystical unity of those with the Spirit...

We are also to have the mind of Christ ala 1 Corinthians 2:12-16...

We are to share in his glory ala John 17:20-26 and live as he did in the world ala 1 John 4:7-21

It is true that not everyone will understand and experience the meaning of such verses, they are too concerned with the letter to ever reach the Spirit ala 2 Corinthians 3:6 but that doesn't mean they weren't provided the capacity... which is what your position suggests.
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
 
Apr 25, 2023
439
10
18
Yes, there were some saved, but being the Saviour, that all who became/become saved were/are so by Him
No, it is not absurd, unless you believe that one must trust in works, not grace for salvation - it can't be by both.
The conclusion was drawn not from that alone.
We must make ourselves receptive to grace...

Your position means God has created billions of people just to burn in hell, that they had no way out at all... and that is not the God I believe in... I don't understand why anyone would think such a being is good or worthy of worship at all...

We cannot provide the grace though, that is exclusively from God... even when we are channels for it.
 
Apr 25, 2023
439
10
18
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
You are still taking in these verses in a theoretical way...

The worldly spirit is that which denies the possibility of our divinity, that finds it absurd to unite with God.

Through that unity we see the expression throughout the new testament and wonder how we missed it.

Certainly most believers minds are blinded because they are concerned with everything but God.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
We must make ourselves receptive to grace...

Your position means God has created billions of people just to burn in hell, that they had no way out at all... and that is not the God I believe in... I don't understand why anyone would think such a being is good or valid of worship at all...

We cannot provide the grace though, that is exclusively from God... even when we are channels for it.

It is the reverse of what you said. Were it dependent upon us, then everyone ever born would burn in hell.
 
Apr 25, 2023
439
10
18
It is the reverse of what you said. Were it dependent upon us, then everyone ever born would burn in hell.
I specifically said grace wholly depends on God...

Why even bother believing at all if there is no need of anything on our side?
 

Bruce_Leiter

Active member
Feb 17, 2023
427
192
43
Saint Augustine of Hippo [354-430 AD]"In this redemption, the blood of Christ was given, as it were as a price for us, by accepting which the devil was not enriched, but bound: that we might be loosened from his bonds, and that he might not with himself involve [us] in the meshes of sins, and so deliver to the destruction of the second and eternal death, any one of those whom Christ, free from all debt, had redeemed by pouring out his own blood unindebtedly; but that they who belong to the grace of Christ, foreknown, and predestinated, and elected before the foundation of the world, should only so far die as Christ Himself died for them, i.e. only by the death of the flesh, not of the spirit." Augustine, On the Trinity XIII:xv:19, trans. Arthur West Haddan, in A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series, ed. Philip Schaff, vol. 3 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, repr. 1988), p. 178 https://cprc.co.uk/articles/covenant3/

The Canons of the Council of Orange 529 AD
CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).
CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).


"Gottschalk of Orbais [803-868 AD] was the first, since the council of Orange (529), to apply so consistently the principles of later Augustine. He taught that God predestined both the elect to eternal life and the reprobate to eternal death. Several centuries would be needed until Thomas Bradwardine (c. 1290-1349), Gregory of Rimini (d. 1358) and John Wycliffe (c. 1330-1384) could voice the same ideas. Gottschalk’s life, rich in dramatic events, is an integral part of the cultural and political life of Germany, France, Italy and Croatia at the dawn of their history. However, Gottschalk of Orbais still remains in the shadow of his more famous contemporaries. Indeed, if a bibliography of the works that treat on Gottschalk is rather large, it can hardly be said that his life and teaching are thoroughly researched." http://gottschalk.inrebus.com/intro.html
See also: https://www.kerux.com/doc/2203A4.asp

Also: "All those impious persons and sinners for whom the Son of God came to redeem by shedding his own blood, those the omnipotent goodness of God predestined to life and irrevocably willed only those to be saved. And again all those impious persons and sinners for whom likewise the Son of God neither assumed a body nor prayed, I say that he did not shed [his] blood nor was in any way crucified for them. In fact, those whom he foreknew were going to be very evil and whom he very justly foreordained unto eternal torments into which they should be cast, he thoroughly does not want them in any way to be eternally saved.
Therefore, I very faithfully believe, very confidently speak, and likewise most certainly and fruitfully confess and most truthfully profess that our omnipotent God, the creator and maker of all creatures, has deigned to be the gratuitous repairer and restorer of all of the elect alone, but willed to be the Savior of none of the perpetually reprobate, the redeemer of none, and glorifier of none." https://prisonerofjoy-kirk.blogspot.com/2014/08/all-those-impious-persons-and-sinners.html

Martin Luther [1483-1546] Bondage of the Will: Sect. 101 - "What do I hear! Are we now inquiring whether or not God loves and hates, and not rather why He loves and hates? Our inquiry is, from what merit it is in us that He loves or hates. We know well enough, that God does not love or hate as we do; because, we love and hate mutably, but He loves and hates from an eternal and immutable nature; and hence it is, that accidents and passions do not pertain unto Him.

And it is this very state of the truth, that of necessity proves "Free-will" to be nothing at all; seeing that, the love and hatred of God towards men is immutable and eternal; existing, not only before there was any merit or work of "Free-will," but before the worlds were made; and that, all things take place in us from necessity, accordingly as He loved or loved not from all eternity. So that, not the love of God only, but even the manner of His love imposes on us necessity. Here then it may be seen, how much its invented ways of escape profit the Diatribe; for the more it attempts to get away from the truth, the more it runs upon it; with so little success does it fight against it!"
https://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html#pt2

John Calvin [1509-1564 AD] Institutes of the Christian Religion definitive edition published in 1559.

Canons of Dort [1618-1619] Second Head, Article 8 - "For this was the sovereign counsel, and most gracious will and purpose of God the Father, that the quickening and saving efficacy of the most precious death of His Son should extend to all the elect, for bestowing upon them alone the gift of justifying faith, thereby to bring them infallibly to salvation: that is, it was the will of God, that Christ by the blood of the cross, whereby He confirmed the new covenant, should effectually redeem out of every people, tribe, nation, and language, all those, and those only, who were from eternity chosen to salvation and given to Him by the Father; that He should confer upon them faith, which together with all the other saving gifts of the Holy Spirit, He purchased for them by His death; should purge them from all sin, both original and actual, whether committed before or after believing; and having faithfully preserved them even to the end, should at last bring them free from every spot and blemish to the enjoyment of glory in His own presence forever." https://prts.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Canons-of-Dort-with-Intro.pdf
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
You are still taking in these verses in a theoretical way...

The worldly spirit is that which denies the possibility of our divinity, that finds it absurd to unite with God.

Through that unity we see the expression throughout the new testament and wonder how we missed it.

Certainly most believers minds are blinded because they are concerned with everything but God.

Frank, I don't know what you're talking about - it doesn't relate in any way to the Bible as I understand it -
it sounds to me like it is based upon some kind of mysticism.
Those blinded, are blinded, because satan has blinded them and that they have not been
born-again, by which, is spiritual sight is given, and in no other way.
 
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
83
If that's true then we would have to satisfy the works of law (which no one can), to become saved
We are not saved by the works of the law. We are saved by faith in Christ.

- the result being that no one can become saved.
People become saved by choosing to believe, or have faith in, the gospel.

It can't be both ways: it is either works or grace, not both - that salvation is either all grace, no works, or, all works no grace, but it can't be of both.
We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9). It is by the grace of God that He made salvation available through faith. He requires about the least thing He could from us: faith in the gospel.
 
Apr 25, 2023
439
10
18
Frank, I don't know what you're talking about - it doesn't relate in any way to the Bible as I understand it -
it sounds to me like it is based upon some kind of mysticism.
Those blinded, are blinded, because satan has blinded them and that they have not been
born-again, by which, is spiritual sight is given, and in no other way.
The new testament is wholly mystical, it is why it is not understood by worldly minds.

Losing this means we have no relation with the Spirit at all.

This is the result of the new creation.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
I specifically said grace wholly depends on God...

Why even bother believing at all if there is no need of anything on our side?
A true belief in Christ as Saviour, is given FROM being saved/born again as a gift through the fruit of the Spirit - it is not
from us, nor is our belief a requirement to become saved.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 

Bruce_Leiter

Active member
Feb 17, 2023
427
192
43
It is the reverse of what you said. Were it dependent upon us, then everyone ever born would burn in hell.
Saint Augustine of Hippo [354-430 AD]"In this redemption, the blood of Christ was given, as it were as a price for us, by accepting which the devil was not enriched, but bound: that we might be loosened from his bonds, and that he might not with himself involve [us] in the meshes of sins, and so deliver to the destruction of the second and eternal death, any one of those whom Christ, free from all debt, had redeemed by pouring out his own blood unindebtedly; but that they who belong to the grace of Christ, foreknown, and predestinated, and elected before the foundation of the world, should only so far die as Christ Himself died for them, i.e. only by the death of the flesh, not of the spirit." Augustine, On the Trinity XIII:xv:19, trans. Arthur West Haddan, in A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series, ed. Philip Schaff, vol. 3 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, repr. 1988), p. 178 https://cprc.co.uk/articles/covenant3/

The Canons of the Council of Orange 529 AD
CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).
CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).


"Gottschalk of Orbais [803-868 AD] was the first, since the council of Orange (529), to apply so consistently the principles of later Augustine. He taught that God predestined both the elect to eternal life and the reprobate to eternal death. Several centuries would be needed until Thomas Bradwardine (c. 1290-1349), Gregory of Rimini (d. 1358) and John Wycliffe (c. 1330-1384) could voice the same ideas. Gottschalk’s life, rich in dramatic events, is an integral part of the cultural and political life of Germany, France, Italy and Croatia at the dawn of their history. However, Gottschalk of Orbais still remains in the shadow of his more famous contemporaries. Indeed, if a bibliography of the works that treat on Gottschalk is rather large, it can hardly be said that his life and teaching are thoroughly researched." http://gottschalk.inrebus.com/intro.html
See also: https://www.kerux.com/doc/2203A4.asp

Also: "All those impious persons and sinners for whom the Son of God came to redeem by shedding his own blood, those the omnipotent goodness of God predestined to life and irrevocably willed only those to be saved. And again all those impious persons and sinners for whom likewise the Son of God neither assumed a body nor prayed, I say that he did not shed [his] blood nor was in any way crucified for them. In fact, those whom he foreknew were going to be very evil and whom he very justly foreordained unto eternal torments into which they should be cast, he thoroughly does not want them in any way to be eternally saved.
Therefore, I very faithfully believe, very confidently speak, and likewise most certainly and fruitfully confess and most truthfully profess that our omnipotent God, the creator and maker of all creatures, has deigned to be the gratuitous repairer and restorer of all of the elect alone, but willed to be the Savior of none of the perpetually reprobate, the redeemer of none, and glorifier of none." https://prisonerofjoy-kirk.blogspot.com/2014/08/all-those-impious-persons-and-sinners.html

Martin Luther [1483-1546] Bondage of the Will: Sect. 101 - "What do I hear! Are we now inquiring whether or not God loves and hates, and not rather why He loves and hates? Our inquiry is, from what merit it is in us that He loves or hates. We know well enough, that God does not love or hate as we do; because, we love and hate mutably, but He loves and hates from an eternal and immutable nature; and hence it is, that accidents and passions do not pertain unto Him.

And it is this very state of the truth, that of necessity proves "Free-will" to be nothing at all; seeing that, the love and hatred of God towards men is immutable and eternal; existing, not only before there was any merit or work of "Free-will," but before the worlds were made; and that, all things take place in us from necessity, accordingly as He loved or loved not from all eternity. So that, not the love of God only, but even the manner of His love imposes on us necessity. Here then it may be seen, how much its invented ways of escape profit the Diatribe; for the more it attempts to get away from the truth, the more it runs upon it; with so little success does it fight against it!"
https://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html#pt2

John Calvin [1509-1564 AD] Institutes of the Christian Religion definitive edition published in 1559.

Canons of Dort [1618-1619] Second Head, Article 8 - "For this was the sovereign counsel, and most gracious will and purpose of God the Father, that the quickening and saving efficacy of the most precious death of His Son should extend to all the elect, for bestowing upon them alone the gift of justifying faith, thereby to bring them infallibly to salvation: that is, it was the will of God, that Christ by the blood of the cross, whereby He confirmed the new covenant, should effectually redeem out of every people, tribe, nation, and language, all those, and those only, who were from eternity chosen to salvation and given to Him by the Father; that He should confer upon them faith, which together with all the other saving gifts of the Holy Spirit, He purchased for them by His death; should purge them from all sin, both original and actual, whether committed before or after believing; and having faithfully preserved them even to the end, should at last bring them free from every spot and blemish to the enjoyment of glory in His own presence forever." https://prts.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Canons-of-Dort-with-Intro.pdf
You're setting up a straw man for people to knock down. In other words, as a Calvinist who went to a solidly biblical Reformed seminary and was a pastor in a Reformed church, I never heard anyone claim that John Calvin "invented" the doctrine of grace, even during a semester course on Calvin's Institutes.
 
Apr 25, 2023
439
10
18
A true belief in Christ as Saviour, is given FROM being saved/born again as a gift through the fruit of the Spirit - it is not
from us, nor is our belief a requirement to become saved.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
I did not say they were from us, stop putting words in my mouth.

Our individual selves must die so that our Spirit selves can rise in its place, most avoid that death.

This has many fruits, but our receptivity is still required... you cannot just stumble upon oneness, you have to undo what divides in you.
 
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
83
A true belief in Christ as Saviour, is given FROM being saved/born again as a gift through the fruit of the Spirit - it is not
from us, nor is our belief a requirement to become saved.
That is absolutely not true.

Acts 16:
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
...not the faith to become saved.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
We are not saved by the works of the law. We are saved by faith in Christ.
Faith is a work and God's work alone (not man's) that one believes in Christ:

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

People become saved by choosing to believe, or have faith in, the gospel.
Natural man cannot chose to believe the gospel. The unsaved are born blinded to spiritual truth and must be born-again to
obtain understanding:

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9). It is by the grace of God that He made salvation available through faith. He requires about the least thing He could from us: faith in the gospel.
Correct, we are saved by grace, but that being so, the faith then must be Christ's faith which brought it about, not ours. Ours
is given to us as a gift from Christ's faith to those saved/born-again. Christ's name is Faithful and True. He was perfectly faithful and righteous in accomplishing the mission the Father gave to Him for destroying sin (for His elect) and bringing forth salvation.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
I did not say they were from us, stop putting words in my mouth.

Our individual selves must die so that our Spirit selves can rise in its place, most avoid that death.

This has many fruits, but our receptivity is still required... you cannot just stumble upon oneness, you have to undo what divides in you.
Becoming born-again is that from which true faith comes, by God through the Holy Spirit to His elect, and to no one else.
 
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
83
Faith is not a work.

and God's work alone (not man's) that one believes in Christ:

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
This is to be understood as "if you want to do the work of God, believe on Jesus Christ."

Natural man cannot chose to believe the gospel. The unsaved are born blinded to spiritual truth and must be born-again to
obtain understanding:

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
The natural, or "soulish" person can decide to seek God. A natural, or worldly-minded, person does not have to stay that way.

Correct, we are saved by grace, but that being so, the faith then must be Christ's faith which brought it about, not ours. Ours
is given to us as a gift from Christ's faith to those saved/born-again. Christ's name is Faithful and True. He was perfectly faithful and righteous in accomplishing the mission the Father gave to Him for destroying sin (for His elect) and bringing forth salvation.
The gift is not the faith to believe, the gift is salvation, which is received when a person decides to have faith in the gospel.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
That is absolutely not true.

Acts 16:
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

...not the faith to become saved.
There is no faith of man that will make anyone saved. The only faith that brought salvation was Christ's faith.
The faith that we obtain comes as a gift from Him.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
aith is not a work.
Anything not a gift is a work because we would have to achieve it of ourselves.
Not only would it be a work, but it would then also be a law.

This is to be understood as "if you want to do the work of God, believe on Jesus Christ."
No, VARob, it just doesn't say that. You contradict your own statement: If it is the work of God as you said, then how could
it be possible that anyone else could do it?
 
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
83
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
The ordaining, or appointing, occurs at the same time as the believing.

There is no faith of man that will make anyone saved.
Faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ will get a person saved.

The only faith that brought salvation was Christ's faith.
Christ's faith made salvation available to all.

The faith that we obtain comes as a gift from Him.
The gift is not the faith to believe, the gift is salvation WHEN we believe.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
The natural, or "soulish" person can decide to seek God. A natural, or worldly-minded, person does not have to stay that way.
Did you read the "neither can he know them" part?

Look, I think this is becoming unfruitful. I don't see much benefit in our continuing,