Is faith WITHOUT works dead to GOD or Is faith WITHOUT works dead to man?

[Cameron143]

With verse 24 and the remainder of the chapter.

Cute. I meant given your previous answer concerning any works as evidence of faith.

 

[HeIsHere]

Any works will prove your faith or your lack thereof. If you go back a few pages a litany of examples from the Bible where their works both prove their faith in God as well as proving their lack of faith in God are provided for you. As well the letter of James gives many examples as well.

So I do one good work, help an elderly person cross the road which no one sees but I prove I am saved?

And how about those who are not saved that do good works but pretend they are saved how do we tell them apart?

How many sins prove a person is not saved?

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

Cute. I meant given your previous answer concerning any works as evidence of faith.

Well, like Jesus says, anyone who hears his words and does them will be liek a wise man that built his house on a firm rock and the storm came and could not move it. In verse 26 we are also given a counter-example, of those that hear Jesus' words but do not do them, and they'll be likeneed to a fool that built his house on sand, and the storm came and the downfall of that house was great.

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

So I help an elderly person cross the road which no one sees but I prove I am saved?

And how about those who are not saved that do good works but pretend they are saved how do we tell them apart?

How many sins prove a person is not saved?

Well to your first question, remember we're not talking about salvation, we're talking about faith and how it is proven by works, and without the works their faith is just their own personal vanity, it's just their hot air. Though indeed if you do that work it would prove you have a measure faith for which reason you are compelled to help the elderly person cross the road.

I have addressed this too, just because one does good works doesn't necessarily mean their faith is in God, as by principle even sinners love eachother and will do good works towards one another, but it does prove they have faith in something, that they have faith in for instance eachother, or faith perhaps in their job or business, or perhaps faith in their nation, etc.

Well no amount proves anything to do with salvation since salvation is by God's grace alone to be judged at the end of the world by God. Which again is a whole other subject. Though to return to the subject, if you do a bunch of wicked works, ergo sins, it would certainly prove you don't have much faith in God, or perhaps it would prove you have a lot of faith in the Devil.

 

[Cameron143]

Well, like Jesus says, anyone who hears his words and does them will be liek a wise man that built his house on a firm rock and the storm came and could not move it. In verse 26 we are also given a counter-example, of those that hear Jesus' words but do not do them, and they'll be likeneed to a fool that built his house on sand, and the storm came and the downfall of that house was great.

I asked specifically about those in verses 21-23 who had plenty of works that no doubt were evident not only to themselves but others and Jesus still said for them to depart.

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

I asked specifically about those in verses 21-23 who had plenty of works that no doubt were evident not only to themselves but others and Jesus still said for them to depart.

Well that's just what they say to the Lord. Jesus answers your question in the following verses in likening those that perform his words and those that do not perform his words to people that build their houses and upon which foundations they build their houses.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well to your first question, remember we're not talking about salvation, we're talking about faith and how it is proven by works, and without the works their faith is just their own personal vanity, it's just their hot air. Though indeed if you do that work it would prove you have a measure faith for which reason you are compelled to help the elderly person cross the road.

I have addressed this too, just because one does good works doesn't necessarily mean their faith is in God, as by principle even sinners love eachother and will do good works towards one another, but it does prove they have faith in something, that they have faith in for instance eachother, or faith perhaps in their job or business, or perhaps faith in their nation, etc.

Well no amount proves anything to do with salvation since salvation is by God's grace alone to be judged at the end of the world by God. Which again is a whole other subject. Though to return to the subject, if you do a bunch of wicked works, ergo sins, it would certainly prove you don't have much faith in God, or perhaps it would prove you have a lot of faith in the Devil.

So essentially works cannot prove faith.

It would be more correct to state works can serve a means by which one can demonstrate faith in the temporal world, to humanity.

 

[Cameron143]

Well that's just what they say to the Lord. Jesus answers your question in the following verses in likening those that perform his words and those that do not perform his words to people that build their houses and upon which foundations they build their houses.

Yes. But how would we know they weren't saved?

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

So essentially works cannot prove faith.

It would be more correct to state works can serve a means by which one can demonstrate faith in the temporal world, to humanity.

No, your works definitely will prove your faith to both God and man just like James says. What your works won't do is save you, as salvation is by God's grace alone.

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

Yes. But how would we know they weren't saved?

Well in terms of knowing that they are damned you will know that when God throws them into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Cameron143]

Well in terms of knowing that they are damned you will know that when God throws them into the Lake of Fire.

So your previous statement about knowing from their works is inaccurate?

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

So your previous statement about knowing from their works is inaccurate?

No, because again you're talking about two different subjects and conflating them together. The subject you are talking about is salvation, which salvation is by God's grace alone. The subject of the thread is faith and how it is proven by works. These are two different subjects that you need to learn to separate.

 

[Cameron143]

No, because again you're talking about two different subjects and conflating them together. The subject you are talking about is salvation, which salvation is by God's grace alone. The subject of the thread is faith and how it is proven by works. These are two different subjects that you need to learn to separate.

I'm not conflating anything. You say on the one hand both God and man can know that someone is a believer by their works and on the other hand that the only way to know for some is when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

I'm not conflating anything. You say on the one hand both God and man can know that someone is a believer by their works and on the other hand that the only way to know for some is when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

No, that is not what I am saying.

 

[Cameron143]

No, your works definitely will prove your faith to both God and man just like James says. What your works won't do is save you, as salvation is by God's grace alone.

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

Right, that is what I have said. See two separate subjects that you are conflating.

Subject 1 is the subject of the thread which is that faith is proven by works

Subject 2 is salvation which is not the subject of the thread, and salvation is not by works, but by the grace of God alone.

You need to learn to separate the subjects and not conflate them.

 

[Cameron143]

Right, that is what I have said. See two separate subjects that you are conflating.

Subject 1 is the subject of the thread which is that faith is proven by works

Subject 2 is salvation which is not the subect of the thread, and salvation is not by works, but by the grace of God alone.

You need to learn to separate the subjects and not conflate them.

Those in Matt 7:21-23 were citing their works as evidence of their faith. Jesus said no go. But they definitely believed their good works were evidence for their faith.

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

Those in Matt 7:21-23 were citing their works as evidence of their faith. Jesus said no go. But they definitely believed their good works were evidence for their faith.

They said that they had good works, but did they really? Again on this Jesus gives the answer. Here let us post it so that we are sure.

Matthew 7:21-29

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

 

[Cameron143]

They said that they had good works, but did they really? Again on this Jesus gives the answer. Here let us post it so that we are sure.

Matthew 7:21-29

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

The key is found in Jesus' answer...I never knew you. Works are poor evidence of faith because anyone can do them.
The fruit of the Spirit, however, cannot be mimicked. You will know them by their fruit.

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

The key is found in Jesus' answer...I never knew you. Works are poor evidence of faith because anyone can do them.
The fruit of the Spirit, however, cannot be mimicked. You will know them by their fruit.

Well now we are getting somewhere. Let us look at this key verse. What does Jesus say after he says "I never knew you" to those people?

Matthew 7:23
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.