Learning to live without money

Matta · Jun 23, 2023

Hi Christians,

I'm new to this forum, but I hope to have the advice and perspectives of many councilors. After living in mission in various places and seeing the difference between how we live in North America and Europe and how people live in the developing world, I have some perspectives that I would like to bounce off of you.

In the developed world we used to all have gardens, root cellars and places where we dried food. We would take time throughout the year to prepare ourselves for the offseason. Each family generally had one household member working outside the home and one working at the home. It wasn't just a house, but a small enterprise that kept our family fed and cared for. We used money for many things including buying food, but over the years the ratio of how much of our food was grown and prepared by us and how much food we purchased has been shifting. Now it seems that almost all of our food is a straight up trade for money. Both parents need to work to be able to afford a home and the whole idea of self reliance has gone south.

What happens when/if we don't have access to money or inflation is so high that we can't afford to buy food?

In the developing world many families live they way we used to live long ago. One person works outside of the home and the other is busy about making sure the home is an enterprise that keeps the family fed and cared for. The people I am referring to are not the people in the developing world who have adopted the urban ways of the West, but the ancient ways of the wise poor.

I am at once ready to trust in the Lord and press forward in mission and at the same time considering relocating to a place where I will be able to better sustain my family and live a quiet simple life, working with my hands and feeding my family.

The way of the world seems to be heading toward a centralized digital currency. This news, and the understanding that digital ID and intolerance for Judaeo/Christian values gives me pause as I contemplate these things.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart;
do not depend on your own understanding.
Seek his will in all you do,
and he will show you which path to take.
Proverbs 3.5-6

“So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink?
What will we wear?’ These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but
your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. Seek the Kingdom of God above
all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need. “So don’t worry
about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today’s trouble is enough for today.
Matthew 6:31-34

So be careful how you live. Don’t live like fools, but like those who are wise.
Make the most of every opportunity in these evil days. Don’t act thoughtlessly,
but understand what the Lord wants you to do.
Ephesians 5:15-17

What say you?

Magenta · Jun 24, 2023

A simplified down-to-earth life sounds charming, very sustainable, and rewarding.

Just the other day I was thinking about the root cellar we had in my family-of-origin home.
It was a small room with an earthen floor, and shelving all around holding the preserves my
mother made. She had worked as a teacher in a one-room school-house, but after marrying
my dad and the children started coming, she stayed at home, and never even learned to drive.

Back then we had milk and bread delivered to our house. Sixteen loaves of bread was a usual
weekly order, and we often ran out, and were sent to the corner store for more. A loaf of bread
was under twenty cents back then. One of my sisters was very sensitive to whether or not we
were drinking real milk, or skimmed milk made from powder; real orange juice or Tang; butter or
margarine. Us kids used to use the milk box to pass goods through when we played grocery store.

We would help making the preserves. The best (most fun) part was putting the fruit through the
grinder, which was clamped to the edge of the kitchen table. My mother would boil the jars. We
made jam, pickles, and fruit preserves of all sorts. Every weekend was flurry of activity also, with
lots of baking done (including three apple pies every week), all the regular house cleaning, and
a big load of laundry. With thirteen people in the house we did laundry at least three times a week,
but Saturday was the biggest and most loads. All this work fell to the girls, while my dad and brothers
were off selling produce at farmer's markets. I volunteered to work with them when I was eight.

The way I remember it is, my mother was against it, but because there were way more girls than boys
in the family, my dad was happy to accept my help, and he fought for me. I worked with my dad and
brothers for ten years after that, all day Saturdays, Friday after school, and special fall fairs, for which
my dad would make barrels and barrels of apple cider. I do not know what a barrel sold for, but a cup
of cider was five cents (same as the cost of a single apple), and a forty-ounce bottle was thirty five cents.
The cider would ferment after a few days, too! Of course I cannot but help think about how much every-
thing has increased in cost the last few years, but comparing prices now to then? A pound of potatoes
now costs as much as a fifty or seventy-five pound bag used to. They really were dirt cheap! Summer
was the busiest time with all the seasonal fruit we sold (lots and lots of peaches). An eleven quart
basket of peaches was three dollars and fifty cents. We sold apples and potatoes year round, along with
honey and maple syrup, rain or shine, and all through the deep dark days of snowy winter. Both of my
parents had been raised on farms, with my dad's family especially being dirt poor, and living hand to mouth.

Magenta · Jun 24, 2023

Matta said:

Proverbs 3:5-6

MsMediator · Jun 24, 2023

Growing your own food/garden/farm is a lot of work and time consuming, especially if one is relying mostly on the farm to provide a majority of the meals. There is a lot of labor involved. However, if you enjoy doing this, that's fine. I did enjoy going to farmer's markets back when I lived near them, and it felt good to get items straight from the source instead of through stores. If it is a family business, that's one thing however if the family is mainly using the farm just to feed immediate family and nearby neighbors, that's a lot of work and personally I don't think it is necessary. Time is money too, if you are using the hours spent in the garden on a "regular" job, the family may be better off financially. One can show love for the family through a regular job rather than toiling in the heat in the garden, pulling out the potatoes, scrubbing them, etc. During hard times/inflation, people have to go back to the basics such as dry beans and rice, and grow some vegetables if they have land. What you are describing, i.e., no money to buy food due to inflation, is famine and scarcity, we don't want to get to that point.

Lanolin · Jun 24, 2023

I think there are pros and cons to both city and country life.

Cities are cash based or digital based now and as long as you are solvent you dont have to worry about your next meal, there will always be crumbs you can scrounge from a dumpster or find work in restaurants even if they are fast foods. This is where the market is and where all the jobs are.

country life is labour intensive and easier if your area is already fertile. If not you may have some tough times ahead. Go organic and resist getting into chemical agribusiness, farmers have comitted suicide over this.

Jesus focussed his minstry in the cities where people were. He was from the country himself. I dont think its a case of 'country life is more godly' but the need for gospel is actually more acute in the cities and thats where you may need to be, rather than isolated in a an exclusive christian commune somewhere.

You Can grow food in urban areas but it requires some ingenuity and inputs..it can be done however. Rather than grow huge amounts of surplus food in the country to sell for cash crops or export, urbanites can establish co ops and OOOBYS within their own commutes via community gardens and allotments.

Lanolin · Jun 24, 2023

If you are in a famine situation you may have to move but are things really that bad where you are?
In thr Bible, Joseph knew it was coming so had a storehouse of grain for seven years in Egypt, and people went there for food.

If you have had. dream or warning from God about a coming famine then tell us otherwise are you just looking out for yourself and not others...famines affect not just your own family but everyone.

People can still swap and exchange and grow food without cash everyone still does that even now. Actually most people do that I dont know anyone who refuses to share food or doesnt know how to harvest a fruit tree or cant forage.

Lynx · Jun 24, 2023

Matta said:

Howdy Matta and welcome to the forum.

Unfortunately the cost of something is most accurately measured in what you will give up to get it. And almost everything sure is cheap these days. Everybody I know has more stuff AND more free time than they did when I was a kid. Oh sure we talk about how low prices were back in the day and how high they are now, but it cost a lot more time and effort to get that little amount of money back then.

I say unfortunately because these days it sure is doggone convenient - and it's real hard to get people to give up convenience. I know I am loathe to give up convenience and go back to growing food, picking it, shelling (beans) coring (fruit) hacking (meat) it, canning or salting it, storing it... I really don't like the thought of going back to that.

It is unfortunate because I see the same trends you talked about. Yeah everyone is dependent on infrastructure a LOT more than they used to be. It's much easier to control people by controlling the systems they depend on, because almost everyone depends on them now.

But I sure wouldn't want to change. It's just too convenient.

Lynx · Jun 24, 2023

Matta said:

Hi Christians,

I'm new to this forum, but I hope to have the advice and perspectives of many councilors. After living in mission in various places and seeing the difference between how we live in North America and Europe and how people live in the developing world, I have some perspectives that I would like to bounce off of you.

In the developed world we used to all have gardens, root cellars and places where we dried food. We would take time throughout the year to prepare ourselves for the offseason. Each family generally had one household member working outside the home and one working at the home. It wasn't just a house, but a small enterprise that kept our family fed and cared for. We used money for many things including buying food, but over the years the ratio of how much of our food was grown and prepared by us and how much food we purchased has been shifting. Now it seems that almost all of our food is a straight up trade for money. Both parents need to work to be able to afford a home and the whole idea of self reliance has gone south.

What happens when/if we don't have access to money or inflation is so high that we can't afford to buy food?

In the developing world many families live they way we used to live long ago. One person works outside of the home and the other is busy about making sure the home is an enterprise that keeps the family fed and cared for. The people I am referring to are not the people in the developing world who have adopted the urban ways of the West, but the ancient ways of the wise poor.

I am at once ready to trust in the Lord and press forward in mission and at the same time considering relocating to a place where I will be able to better sustain my family and live a quiet simple life, working with my hands and feeding my family.

The way of the world seems to be heading toward a centralized digital currency. This news, and the understanding that digital ID and intolerance for Judaeo/Christian values gives me pause as I contemplate these things.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart;
do not depend on your own understanding.
Seek his will in all you do,
and he will show you which path to take.
Proverbs 3.5-6

“So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink?
What will we wear?’ These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but
your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. Seek the Kingdom of God above
all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need. “So don’t worry
about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today’s trouble is enough for today.
Matthew 6:31-34

So be careful how you live. Don’t live like fools, but like those who are wise.
Make the most of every opportunity in these evil days. Don’t act thoughtlessly,
but understand what the Lord wants you to do.
Ephesians 5:15-17

What say you?

One word about going back to living mostly off-the-grid: Make sure it's in a place with no property taxes.

If you can't buy or sell without the mark of the beast, even if you own the land you won't be able to pay taxes and it will be seized. Then you won't have any place to grow all that food you were talking about canning.

ResidentAlien · Jun 24, 2023

Matta said:

Hi Christians,

I'm new to this forum, but I hope to have the advice and perspectives of many councilors. After living in mission in various places and seeing the difference between how we live in North America and Europe and how people live in the developing world, I have some perspectives that I would like to bounce off of you.

In the developed world we used to all have gardens, root cellars and places where we dried food. We would take time throughout the year to prepare ourselves for the offseason. Each family generally had one household member working outside the home and one working at the home. It wasn't just a house, but a small enterprise that kept our family fed and cared for. We used money for many things including buying food, but over the years the ratio of how much of our food was grown and prepared by us and how much food we purchased has been shifting. Now it seems that almost all of our food is a straight up trade for money. Both parents need to work to be able to afford a home and the whole idea of self reliance has gone south.

What happens when/if we don't have access to money or inflation is so high that we can't afford to buy food?

In the developing world many families live they way we used to live long ago. One person works outside of the home and the other is busy about making sure the home is an enterprise that keeps the family fed and cared for. The people I am referring to are not the people in the developing world who have adopted the urban ways of the West, but the ancient ways of the wise poor.

I am at once ready to trust in the Lord and press forward in mission and at the same time considering relocating to a place where I will be able to better sustain my family and live a quiet simple life, working with my hands and feeding my family.

The way of the world seems to be heading toward a centralized digital currency. This news, and the understanding that digital ID and intolerance for Judaeo/Christian values gives me pause as I contemplate these things.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart;
do not depend on your own understanding.
Seek his will in all you do,
and he will show you which path to take.
Proverbs 3.5-6

“So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink?
What will we wear?’ These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but
your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. Seek the Kingdom of God above
all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need. “So don’t worry
about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today’s trouble is enough for today.
Matthew 6:31-34

So be careful how you live. Don’t live like fools, but like those who are wise.
Make the most of every opportunity in these evil days. Don’t act thoughtlessly,
but understand what the Lord wants you to do.
Ephesians 5:15-17

What say you?

Sounds good if that's what the Lord is calling you to do. But trusting in Him means trusting Him in whatever circumstance you find yourself in.

p_rehbein · Jun 24, 2023

Matta said:

In the developed world we used to all have gardens, root cellars and places where we dried food. We would take time throughout the year to prepare ourselves for the offseason. Each family generally had one household member working outside the home and one working at the home. It wasn't just a house, but a small enterprise that kept our family fed and cared for. We used money for many things including buying food, but over the years the ratio of how much of our food was grown and prepared by us and how much food we purchased has been shifting. Now it seems that almost all of our food is a straight up trade for money. Both parents need to work to be able to afford a home and the whole idea of self reliance has gone south.

They needed money to accomplish all of this.......money is not EVIL. The LOVE of money IS....

iamsoandso · Jun 24, 2023

The biggest hurdle to going off grid and living without money is when I look at the farms for sale and realize that I'm gonna need about a half a million dollars to be able to get a small farm.

shittim · Jun 24, 2023

Ben Franklin once advised, "the best thing a young man can do is marry a widow with 12 children", back then 80%+ of what you needed was made in the home, and kids did a lot of it, weeding the garden, milking the cow (s), churning the butter, etc, now kids are an expense to the point the birthrate is falling in 1st world societies.

Lanolin · Jun 24, 2023

shittim said:

Ben Franklin once advised, "the best thing a young man can do is marry a widow with 12 children", back then 80%+ of what you needed was made in the home, and kids did a lot of it, weeding the garden, milking the cow (s), churning the butter, etc, now kids are an expense to the point the birthrate is falling in 1st world societies.

kids were slave labour thats why

Magenta · Jun 24, 2023

Matta said:

“So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink?
What will we wear?’ These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but
your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. Seek the Kingdom of God above
all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need. “So don’t worry
about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today’s trouble is enough for today.
Matthew 6:31-34

Matthew 6:31 plus 33

shittim · Jun 24, 2023

Lanolin said:

wrong thinking sister

In Amish families every person has a job and they do it.
The tiniest may wash dishes, hoe the garden, etc.
It is character development.

Redcars · Jun 24, 2023

I've adapted The Minimalist lifestyle. Minimal clothes, especially household items, etc. I love it! Less cleaning, lots of mental space freed, more organized. But the best thing is the time that has freed me. To me time is money, I have time to do more activities and go out.

I don't like the isolated off the grid life, I like being around people, sight seeing and exploring all the beauty of this world, especially nature it makes me feel so close to God seeing the large mountains, waterfalls, canyons, oceans, snow, its so wonderful to experience. But yeah, being a minimalist and more simple has improve my life as far as freeing up time so I can travel more.

Gojira · Jun 24, 2023

Matta said:

Hi Christians,

I'm new to this forum, but I hope to have the advice and perspectives of many councilors. After living in mission in various places and seeing the difference between how we live in North America and Europe and how people live in the developing world, I have some perspectives that I would like to bounce off of you.

In the developed world we used to all have gardens, root cellars and places where we dried food. We would take time throughout the year to prepare ourselves for the offseason. Each family generally had one household member working outside the home and one working at the home. It wasn't just a house, but a small enterprise that kept our family fed and cared for. We used money for many things including buying food, but over the years the ratio of how much of our food was grown and prepared by us and how much food we purchased has been shifting. Now it seems that almost all of our food is a straight up trade for money. Both parents need to work to be able to afford a home and the whole idea of self reliance has gone south.

What happens when/if we don't have access to money or inflation is so high that we can't afford to buy food?

In the developing world many families live they way we used to live long ago. One person works outside of the home and the other is busy about making sure the home is an enterprise that keeps the family fed and cared for. The people I am referring to are not the people in the developing world who have adopted the urban ways of the West, but the ancient ways of the wise poor.

I am at once ready to trust in the Lord and press forward in mission and at the same time considering relocating to a place where I will be able to better sustain my family and live a quiet simple life, working with my hands and feeding my family.

The way of the world seems to be heading toward a centralized digital currency. This news, and the understanding that digital ID and intolerance for Judaeo/Christian values gives me pause as I contemplate these things.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart;
do not depend on your own understanding.
Seek his will in all you do,
and he will show you which path to take.
Proverbs 3.5-6

“So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink?
What will we wear?’ These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but
your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. Seek the Kingdom of God above
all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need. “So don’t worry
about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today’s trouble is enough for today.
Matthew 6:31-34

So be careful how you live. Don’t live like fools, but like those who are wise.
Make the most of every opportunity in these evil days. Don’t act thoughtlessly,
but understand what the Lord wants you to do.
Ephesians 5:15-17

What say you?

I understand the desire to prepare for what looks like an oncoming global totalitarianism. I prefer to fight until I believe it is time to give up doing so. I don't believe that time is yet.

Matta · Jun 25, 2023

MsMediator said:

HI,
some good points to ponder. I agree that not everyone can be completely self-sufficient and that is where our community comes in. I totally agree that it is good to be connected to local farms and to people who are growing other things. For me, the key component maybe is that we are in community with believers who are living the right way. I appreciate your perspective.

Matta · Jun 25, 2023

Lanolin said:

I think there are pros and cons to both city and country life.

Cities are cash based or digital based now and as long as you are solvent you dont have to worry about your next meal, there will always be crumbs you can scrounge from a dumpster or find work in restaurants even if they are fast foods. This is where the market is and where all the jobs are.

country life is labour intensive and easier if your area is already fertile. If not you may have some tough times ahead. Go organic and resist getting into chemical agribusiness, farmers have comitted suicide over this.

Jesus focussed his minstry in the cities where people were. He was from the country himself. I dont think its a case of 'country life is more godly' but the need for gospel is actually more acute in the cities and thats where you may need to be, rather than isolated in a an exclusive christian commune somewhere.

You Can grow food in urban areas but it requires some ingenuity and inputs..it can be done however. Rather than grow huge amounts of surplus food in the country to sell for cash crops or export, urbanites can establish co ops and OOOBYS within their own commutes via community gardens and allotments.

That is so true. I agree with your comment about ministry in the cities. I also think that a monastic style commune is not the right model. We should be in mission wherever we are. I take what you are saying and agree. Thank you for the input.

JaumeJ · Jun 25, 2023

Redcars said:

I've adapted The Minimalist lifestyle. Minimal clothes, especially household items, etc. I love it! Less cleaning, lots of mental space freed, more organized. But the best thing is the time that has freed me. To me time is money, I have time to do more activities and go out.

I don't like the isolated off the grid life, I like being around people, sight seeing and exploring all the beauty of this world, especially nature it makes me feel so close to God seeing the large mountains, waterfalls, canyons, oceans, snow, its so wonderful to experience. But yeah, being a minimalist and more simple has improve my life as far as freeing up time so I can travel more.

A very healthy attitude and approach at all levels I believe. God bless your endeavor.

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