The Second Coming is NOT the Rapture

Nehemiah6 · Jul 5, 2023

PART I

The world is not expecting Christ to literally return to earth “with power and great glory”. But those who believe God and Christ, and believe what the Bible has to say do not doubt this. And the Second Coming may be much closer than we think. But the Rapture precedes the Second Coming of Christ. That is a divine necessity.

Jesus said this in His Olivet Discourse: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30 cf Mark 13:26)

When we read just this verse several questions come to mind:
1. What is “then” in reference to?
2. What is the “sign of the Son of Man”?
3. Which “heaven” is involved here?
4. Why will “all the tribes of the earth mourn”?
5. Why will absolutely everyone see Christ at His Coming?
6. What are “the clouds of heaven”?
7. What is this “power and great glory”?

1. What is “then” in reference to?
We simply need to go back to verse 29 to see what must happen before Christ comes, and it is truly devastating: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. This is speaking about earth-shaking cataclysmic cosmic events which will immediately precede the Second Coming, and are described in the 6th Seal of Revelation.

2. What is the “sign of the Son of Man”?
This is described in verse 27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. There will be a supernatural brightness or brilliance in the sky -- akin to lightning -- but far more intense. The sky will be lit up all across the globe in a manner never seen before, because Christ will be coming in the full brightness of His glory (as seen at the Transfiguration, and other times).

3. Which “heaven” is involved here?
Since the sky is in the “first” heaven or atmospheric heaven, this is the heaven in which Christ will be seen by all the inhabitants of the world.

4. Why will “all the tribes of the earth mourn”?
The nations of the earth will mourn because they are now facing terrible divine judgment and wrath (Jude 1:14,15). This is described in Revelation 6:12-17: 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

5. Why will absolutely everyone see Christ at His Coming?
Every eye shall see Him, because every knee must bow to Christ, and unbelieving Jews (“they which pierced Him”) must see their true Messiah and King. We have two key passages which are related to this: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:9-11 cf Rom 14:11). In Isaiah 45:22,23, it is God who speaks this about Himself, therefore that is more confirmation that Jesus is God: Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Nehemiah6 · Jul 5, 2023

PART II

6. What are “the clouds of heaven”?
Many will automatically assume that these are the ordinary clouds which bring rain. But since these “clouds” are seen in the third heaven (near the throne of God) that word is a metaphor for the saints and angels surrounding Christ at His Second Coming: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man [Christ] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days [God the Father], and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13,14) This is further confirmed by Christ thus: Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mt 26:64 cf Mk 14:62)

7. What is this “power and great glory”?
When Jesus came to earth at His first advent it was in meekness and humility as the Lamb of God. That was when He came into the world to save sinners. But at His Second Coming He will come to destroy the enemies of God, Christ, Christians, and Christianity. As well as the unbelieving, the ungodly and the wicked. He will wield His absolute divine power and destroy “with the breath of His mouth” and “the brightness of His coming”. This is presented to us in these two passages below: And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day... And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thess 1:7-10: 2:8)

Anyone who has not obeyed the Gospel as yet needs to keep all these Scriptures in mind. God now commands all men everywhere to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36).

bluto · Jul 6, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

PART II

6. What are “the clouds of heaven”?
Many will automatically assume that these are the ordinary clouds which bring rain. But since these “clouds” are seen in the third heaven (near the throne of God) that word is a metaphor for the saints and angels surrounding Christ at His Second Coming: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man [Christ] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days [God the Father], and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13,14) This is further confirmed by Christ thus: Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mt 26:64 cf Mk 14:62)

7. What is this “power and great glory”?
When Jesus came to earth at His first advent it was in meekness and humility as the Lamb of God. That was when He came into the world to save sinners. But at His Second Coming He will come to destroy the enemies of God, Christ, Christians, and Christianity. As well as the unbelieving, the ungodly and the wicked. He will wield His absolute divine power and destroy “with the breath of His mouth” and “the brightness of His coming”. This is presented to us in these two passages below: And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day... And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thess 1:7-10: 2:8)

Anyone who has not obeyed the Gospel as yet needs to keep all these Scriptures in mind. God now commands all men everywhere to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36).

Quick question for clarity? Do you believe there is a rapture before the second coming? Thank You!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Pilgrimshope · Jul 6, 2023

consider this parable and the explaination Jesus gave

“Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:24-30‬ ‭

a note there isn’t teo Harvest times but he said let both the good and bad grow together and then I’ll harvest the good and cast away the bad at once at the harvest then the explaination of the parable

“He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

the field is the world;

the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

the enemy that sowed them is the devil;

the harvest is the end of the world;

and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:37-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

One time harvest both the good and bad two results one group enters the kingdom the other group doesn’t this is more detail of that day again notice it all happens at the same judgement when he returns

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-32, 34, 40-41, 45-46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

More detail of that day the group that isn’t going to inherit life

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And the other group that day who believed will experience this instead when that happens

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the entire New Testament is based on switching for Jesus to return from heaven at the end of the world

He came once in the gospel went to heaven and will return again with salvstion for the faithful and destruction for the world

“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭

“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭

“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus will return once at the end of the world at that time he will gather all his people left on earth and raise the dead for judgement

If we’re alive that day

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51-52‬ ‭

One day Jesus will arrive just like he left until that day we have to walk by faith

Nehemiah6 · Jul 6, 2023

bluto said:

As I noted above it is a divine necessity that the Rapture (or more precisely the Resurrection/Rapture) precede the Second Coming of Christ.

The reason for this is that all the glorified saints must be present in Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb. (And presumably the Judgment Seat of Christ will precede that, since "we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ").

It is only after the Marriage of the Lamb that we see Christ descending will all His saints and angels for the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19). The "clouds of Heaven" are in fact the myriads of saints and angels (all dressed in white and radiating light) which will appear as bright clouds surrounding Christ. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev 19:14). The fine linen, clean and white takes us back to this verse: And to her [the Lamb's Wife] was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (v 8).

Blade · Jul 6, 2023

Just saying thank you 1st to the Father and to all here. Well to be taking about Christ coming.. you blessed me! Thank you

bluto · Jul 6, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Just to let you know I disagree with your conclusions. That's why I ask you the question so I would be clear as to where you stand on this issue. At Matthew 24:3 the disciples ask Jesus a very specific question about when will the temple buildings be torn down? Jesus then says, "Tell us when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, AND THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD?"

Then from vs4-14 Jesus explains all the things that are going to happen previous to vs15. (And btw, these things are in full swing even today.) At vs15 Jesus gives us a "tip off" of what to looke for. "Therefore when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Jesus says the tribulation is in full swing and He suggest what we should do.

Then at vs 29, (which you quoted) says, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days The Sun will be darkened, and the Moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the Son of Mav will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Vs31, And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His ELECT from the four winds from one end of the sky to the other."

Now, I have one question for you? When does the rapture of the church happen from the point of where the disciples ask Jesus when is the end of the age or the end of the world through Matthew 24 verse 28?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Beckie · Jul 6, 2023

Something i have wondered about off and on over the years. It is not a point of Salvation just kinda one of those things i dont think we really know. We have ideas, educated opinions , good ol why even wonder.
This thought is put in the second coming thread with intent.
Joh 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
Joh 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

...................................................On the Road to Emmauas

Luk 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Ascension
Luk 24:50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Here in John it is not clear if John is referring to after or before the Ascension.

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Why the difference from John 20:17 to the other verses. I dont believe He said dont touch me to Mary because she is female. Jesus was most gracious to women. Not to take away from THEE ASCENSION but could He have accented more then just what is recorded?

Nehemiah6 · Jul 6, 2023

bluto said:

There is no discussion of the Rapture within Matthew chapter 24. It is all about the Second Coming and the events between the destruction of the temple and the Second Coming.

Please note carefully that in 1 Thessalonians 4 (the Rapture passage) Christ DOES NOT send His angels to gather the Church. Why? Because He comes personally as noted in John 14:1-3. Note carefully: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself". Why? Because the divine Bridegroom comes for His Bride, who will then become the Lamb's Wife. Thus we have the Parable of the Ten Virgins in the next chapter.

But in Matthew 24 He sends His angels to gather the elect believing remnant of Israel AFTER His coming to earth. Indeed all Jewry worldwide will be gathered to Israel to confront their Messiah (as noted in other prophecies). But not all will be saved.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 6, 2023

@Beckie 's Post #8,

Recall, that Jesus (later that very same day that He rose from the dead) had said to them, "Handle Me...".

So, yes (and I've post about this a number of times), when He said to Mary Magdalene (early in the day), "I ASCEND" (John 20:17), and told her to "go... and SAY UNTO" them, this... He means that He was ascending that very day.

Later that evening, per Luke 24:39, He then said, "Handle Me..." (because He had already ascended and come back down).

Then it was some "40 days" later when He went up, VISIBLY (in front of them), and then they were told this is how He "shall SO COME, in LIKE MANNER, AS ye have SEEN Him traveling up to Heaven" (that will be "when EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him--i.e. His Second Coming to the earth point in the chronology [not at "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point in the chronology, which will involve ONLY "us / the Church which is His body," and no one else])

bluto · Jul 7, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Honestly I have to say that the idea that the angels are not mentioned at 1 Thessalonians 4 is really a very weak argument for the so-called rapture at this point. Notice what the Apostle Paul states at 1 Thess. 4:18, "Therefore comfort one another with thesw words." If as you say this is the "rapture passage" can you please explain 2 Thessalonians 1-2?

Paul commends the Thessalonian church from verses 1-5 for being worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering." Now look at vs6-7, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, vs7, and to give "REST/RELIEF" to you who are afflicted "WHEN" the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire." Please notice the angels are mentioned and also notice that the elect will get "REST/RELIEF" when the Lord is revealed.

This is tribulation talk and Luke 21:28, 35 verify this. "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and look and lift up your heads, because your REDEMPTION is drawing near. Vs35, "for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of the earth." Now, getting back to 2 Thessalonians 2 notice Paul is quoting Matthew 24:15, "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, AND THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED, THE SON OF DESTRUCTION." Vs4, "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

Remember what Jesus stated as a "tip off" at Matthew 24:15? Jumping down to 2 Thess 2:8, "And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming." Notice what Paul says at 2 Thess 3:1-3, "Finally, brethren pray for us that the word of the Lord may spread rapidly and be glorified, just as it did also with you; vs2, and that we may be DELIVERED from perverse and evil men; for not all have faith. vs3, But the Lord is faithful and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one." This sure does not sound like anyone has been raptured but rather God giving those who are in the tribulation divine protection.

And here is my last question for you to consider. Notice at 1 John 2:18 what John states, "Children it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, (notice THE singular antichrist) even now there many antichrists have arisen; from this we know it is the last hour." Why is John telling the believers to look for THE antichrist if everybody is raptured before he arrives? John is saying to expect the antichrist.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Nehemiah6 · Jul 7, 2023

bluto said:

You've switched over to 2 Thessalonians which deals with another topic. Let's just stick with 1 Thess 4 and see where those angels are being sent out. That is not a weak argument but a very strong one. Only the archangel is mentioned blowing "the trump of God". There is a huge contrast between 1 Thess 4 and Matthew 24. If you want to take it step by step you should do so and note the differences.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 8, 2023

bluto said:

[note: I'll be commenting on the portions I put in BLUE, in your quote ^ ]

The text actually reads:

"ye who are troubled rest with us IN THE REVELATION [noun] OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels
in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON them that know not God and..." which is actually referring to this occurring over a period of time (not in one instant / moment of time / point in time):

--"with His MIGHTY angels"... think: "7 angels with 7 Trumpets" and "7 angels with 7 Vials" (over the course of SOME TIME--a period of time of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth);

--"IN FLAMING FIRE"... think (and compare): same language used in Lam2:3-4 "in flaming fire" which context speaks to judgment over a PERIOD OF TIME (see also Hab1:6,12 "... O LORD, thou hast ordained them [the Chaldeans / Babylonians] for judgment [/to execute judgment]; and O mighty God, thou hast established them [the Chaldeans / Babylonians] for correction." Speaking of a substantial period of time; God used the Babylonians as His instrument of judgment upon Israel--and not merely in "one moment" of time, but over some time);

--along with that point ^ , notice how Lam2:3-4's wording (esp: "he hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy"--i.e. lifting the restraint, and letting the enemy "have at 'em!") parallels the wording used in 2Th2:7b-8a, where it states, "the one restraining AT PRESENT, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he become, AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed" (he is "revealed" at Seal #1 at the START of the "7-yr period" [which time period involves also the 7 angels / 7 trumpets... and the 7 angels / 7 Vials "in which the WRATH of God is completed"... and these take place over the course of SOME TIME--Again, "IN THE REVELATION [noun] OF the Lord Jesus from heaven WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON those that..."]);

--"TAKING VENGEANCE ON"... occurs over the course of SOME TIME (i.e. in the Trib years), not merely on the "singular 24-hr day" of His "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19; rather, it corresponds to the TIME PERIOD in which the following also takes place: "God shall SEND TO THEM strong delusion SO THAT they should BELIEVE THE LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI..." (2Th2:10-12, etc), that is, IN / DURING / WITHIN the Tribulation period (a TIME PERIOD--over the course of SOME TIME)--same people being spoken of in chapter one under present discussion;
The phrase "TAKING VENGEANCE ON" hails back to the wording found in Luke 18:8 "AVENGE *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" which time period's wording corresponds directly with Revelation 1:1's "[to SHOW UNTO...] things which must come to pass *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*"--referencing the "future, specific, LIMITED time period" starting at SEAL #1, at the START of the 7-yr Trib; compare Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1's wording with each other--This is referencing what is commonly called the 7-year Tribulation Period, in / during which the "7 angels / 7 Trumpets" and "7 angels / 7 Vials" ("HIS MIGHTY ANGELS") will also take place (i.e. with "judgments" unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME);

--the text in 2Th1:7 does not carry the meaning "RECEIVE rest" (or "to give" rest)... it is just stating the fact of "[ye who are troubled] rest with us IN THE REVELATION [noun] OF..." (and note that it is not the "verb": will be revealed [from heaven]" but rather, the "noun" [in] THE REVELATION [NOUN] OF..." (I'm asking you to, in view of all of the above, consider this phrase to be referencing A PERIOD OF TIME [i.e. the Tribulation period, when these JUDGMENTS will be unfolding upon the earth--Jesus, from His position in Heaven, initiating these--Seal #1 and onward--and using the assistance of "HIS MIGHTY ANGELS" throughout that time period, rather than viewing this sentence in 2Th1:7-9 to be referencing ONE SINGULAR MOMENT in time, at Rev19, alone);

--much more could be said on this 2Th1:7-9 passage... but I'm outta time and gotta run! = )

robert1978bp · Jul 8, 2023

Beckie said:

Something i have wondered about off and on over the years. It is not a point of Salvation just kinda one of those things i dont think we really know. We have ideas, educated opinions , good ol why even wonder.
This thought is put in the second coming thread with intent.
Joh 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
Joh 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

...................................................On the Road to Emmauas

Luk 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Ascension
Luk 24:50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Here in John it is not clear if John is referring to after or before the Ascension.

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Why the difference from John 20:17 to the other verses. I dont believe He said dont touch me to Mary because she is female. Jesus was most gracious to women. Not to take away from THEE ASCENSION but could He have accented more then just what is recorded?

On the John 20:17 passage Jesus saw what was in Mary's heart, so Jesus warned her not get too comfy about Him being there in the body for too long.. His earthly ministry in the body was soon over,.. many translation use the phrase "do not cling to me"... also "do not hold me" as in holding Him down to earth.. this was different from telling others to actually go ahead and touch Him, so that they may believe that He is not just some kind of spirit but actually raised from the dead..

Beckie · Jul 8, 2023

robert1978bp said:

The Scripture say Jesus said this Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
No doubt God/Jesus knew what was in her heart, He said what He said. I believe His Word to be true.

robert1978bp · Jul 9, 2023

Beckie said:

You are stating "Scripture say" like I am not quoting from scripture.. take a look at the following page and see how that majority of translations use what I wrote before: https://biblehub.com/john/20-17.htm

Example of New King James:
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”

Also, if Christ ascended to the Father that day and came back the same day, then the 2nd coming of Christ would be already past..

Also consider Hebrews 9...

"but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption."

25 "Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own."

Also there are many references to Christ sitting at the right hand of God after His ascension, but none regarding other ideas.. until His millenial reign of course..

selahsays · Jul 9, 2023

bluto said:

No.

selahsays · Jul 9, 2023

bluto said:

Just to let you know I disagree with your conclusions. That's why I ask you the question so I would be clear as to where you stand on this issue. At Matthew 24:3 the disciples ask Jesus a very specific question about when will the temple buildings be torn down? Jesus then says, "Tell us when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, AND THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD?"

Then from vs4-14 Jesus explains all the things that are going to happen previous to vs15. (And btw, these things are in full swing even today.) At vs15 Jesus gives us a "tip off" of what to looke for. "Therefore when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Jesus says the tribulation is in full swing and He suggest what we should do.

Then at vs 29, (which you quoted) says, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days The Sun will be darkened, and the Moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the Son of Mav will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Vs31, And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His ELECT from the four winds from one end of the sky to the other."

Now, I have one question for you? When does the rapture of the church happen from the point of where the disciples ask Jesus when is the end of the age or the end of the world through Matthew 24 verse 28?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Jesus does not return until after Satan’s tribulation.

selahsays · Jul 9, 2023

bluto said:

Because THE Antichrist comes before the true Christ.

selahsays · Jul 9, 2023

Jesus Christ returns at the seventh trump, the last trump, after Satan has been standing in Jerusalem claiming he is God.

2 Thes. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Jesus Christ will not be returning until the great apostasy (falling away) occurs AFTER Satan, the son of perdition, is revealed.

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The Second Coming is NOT the Rapture

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