Pre-Trib/Mid/Post Trib? We will know for sure (?) in a couple months

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seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
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^ @seekingthemindofChrist ,

Hi seeking,

Consider the similar language used between this Daniel 12:2 passage you've quoted, and that found in Isaiah 26:13-21 (I won't quote it here, for its length, but please do go read this passage); I'm often posting about these passages, and related ones, but here I'm just going to place a succinct commentary, below, that basically says what I'm often pointing out about these passages :) (and a related passage not mentioned in his commentary: Romans 11:15, saying the same thing, about the same persons, "For if the casting away of them [Israel] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?"--That is, likening this to a "resurrection," though not being a physical resurrection from being formerly physically dead, but rather, Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered--a number of passages speak to this matter, and liken it to a "resurrection"):


[quoting from commentary by Gaebelein]

"Isaiah 26:1
In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.

CHAPTER 26 Judah’s Glory Song

1. Praise for Jehovah’s faithfulness and mercies (Isaiah 26:1-6) 2. The experiences of waiting during the night (Isaiah 26:7-11) 3. The assurance of peace and deliverance (Isaiah 26:12-18) 4. Assurance of restoration and preservation (Isaiah 26:19-21) We call attention to verses 12-21. Annihilationists base upon these words the evil doctrine that the wicked are not raised, but destroyed. The fact, however, is that Isaiah 26:13 and Isaiah 26:14 do not teach a physical resurrection. The teaching is that the lordship of other nations over Israel is forever gone. No other lords will ever rise again to domineer over Israel.
Death and resurrection are often used in the Old Testament as symbols of Israel’s national death and national resurrection. See Hosea 6:2; Ezekiel 37:1-28; Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 26:19 of the present chapter.


-- Isaiah 26 Gaebelein's Annotated Bible (biblehub.com)


[end quoting commentary by Gaebelein; bold mine; recall my comment adding Rom11:15[,25,26,27-29] (corresponding with both Isa27:9,12-13/Matt24:29-31 and Dan9:24) to this list of passages speaking to this matter: likening it to a "resurrection," including this Dan12:2 passage, and which is distinct from Dan12:13 which IS a physical/bodily resurrection]







I hope you will thoughtfully consider the various passages listed in this post, and ponder that these are speaking of Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered... and this is likening it to a "resurrection" (but isn't a physical / bodily resurrection from the dead).

= )


Please read carefully: Hosea 5:14-6:3... Daniel 12:1-4... Isaiah 26:13-21... Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23... Romans 11:15[,25,26,27-29 and Isa27:9,12-13 (Matt24:29-31) / Dan9:24... all of these regarding "Israel's FUTURE"--likening this (in each main passage) to a "resurrection"]
I am very familiar with all of the portions of scripture that you referenced, but I did go back and read them all again before typing this response in order to hopefully better understand your position. I will not give you a line by line response here, nor will I take the time to unnecessarily repeat everything that I have already said in previous posts, but I will simply say this:

Although I do not deny that "life from the dead" at times, such as in Romans 11:15, is not meant to be understood in the sense of a literal bodily resurrection, such is definitely not the case in Daniel 12:2.

Again, here is the passage of scripture in question with its surrounding verses:

Daniel 12:1-3

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

After being told of the coming time of trouble or great tribulation, Daniel was told that "at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." "Thy people" refers specifically to certain Jews, and those certain Jews are those who shall be found written in the book, or those Jews whose names will be found written in the Lamb's book of life. In other words, this is not referring to some sort of national "resurrection" amongst other nations, but, instead, it is referring to individuals amongst Daniel's people, the Jews, who will be raised up unto literal everlasting or eternal life. At the same time, those whose names shall not be found written in the Lamb's book of life shall awake or be resurrected unto everlasting contempt, and this perfectly coincides with the revelation that the Apostle John received.

Revelation 20:11-15

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Furthermore, Jesus spoke of this same distinction between those who will ultimately awake to either everlasting life or everlasting contempt when he said:

Matthew 25:46

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Similarly, Jesus said:

John 5:28-29

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

The Apostle Paul also rightly understood these two distinct, yet literal, resurrections, and he wrote:

Acts 24:14-16

"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men."

Finally, and as I have already mentioned before, Jesus rightly alluded to Daniel 12:3 in its proper context in the parable of the wheat and tares while he was speaking of the harvest at the end of the world. Again, his earthly kingdom reign will last for 1000 years, and then he will deliver the kingdom up to his Father. and "then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father"(Matthew 13:43).
 
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Gojira

Guest
Actually, it is a bunch of nonsense.
This much is true.
Huh?

How are you using the word "populate" here?

Do you mean to populate as in to reside there, or do you mean to populate as in generating new life through sexual intercourse?

If it is the former, then you just rightly noted that all the resurrected saints will return immediately to earth, so how can you now say that there would be no one left to populate the millennial kingdom?

Where do you believe the millennial kingdom will be?

According to scripture, it will be here on earth, and it will be partly inhabited or populated by the resurrected saints who will reign and rule with Christ for 1000 years.

If you meant the latter, then I don't know where you got the notion from that saints will be generating new life during Christ's millennial reign.
Nowhere does the Bible teach that all of the wicked will be killed or consigned to Hades at the end of the tribulation.

Here is but a sample of what the Bible actually teaches on the matter:

Daniel 7:11-12

"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

Beasts, in Bible prophecy, represent kings and their kingdoms.

Daniel 7:17

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

Daniel 7:23

"Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."

When Daniel foresaw the beast being slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame, this is what he was referring to:

Revelation 19:19-20

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

The beast, or the Antichrist, will be confined to the lake of fire at Christ's second coming which ushers in his millennial reign. As Daniel also correctly foresaw, the rest of the beasts, or the rest of the kings and their kingdoms, had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. In other words, not all of the wicked will be destroyed at Christ's second coming or immediately after the tribulation period. Instead, they will continue on until the end of Christ's millennial reign, and then they will be judged. Revelation chapter 20 gives a very good description of the scenario that I just described.
Again, huh?

As I already explained, the millennial kingdom will be plenteously populated or inhabited by Christ, the Christians who will be reigning with him for 1000 years, and the wicked who will yet be alive at that time and who will be reigned over by Christ and the Christians for those same 1000 years.

I will address your other objections in a future post because I am not sure how much space I am allotted for a single post. It might not be until tomorrow.
Try not to get worked up. We got people on this site who go off the deep end with all sorts of things, including conspiracy theories, flat earth, and now this BS. At some pt you just got to let them go on about their tirades, because nothing is going to change their mind -- except the lack of fulfillment of what they warned us about, and even that they may rationalize away.
 
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Gojira

Guest
Yup - I always liked Watchman Nee's version: "The ones who "GO" when the trumpet sounds, are the ones who react with JOY that their deliverance has come. the ones who are LEFT, are the ones that look back in concern about what they're leaving (the "Lot's wife thing").
Well, the ones who are left ought to look back at what they're leaving behind, because that's as close to Heaven as they're going to get.
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
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Matthew 13:47-51

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord."

It is the same exact scenario that Jesus described in his parable of the wheat and tares.

Once more, the timeframe is the end of the world, and not the end of the tribulation period. At that time, the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. This perfectly coincides with what Jesus said here:

Matthew 13:40-43

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

As I said before, at the end of this world, and not at the end of the tribulation period, Jesus will send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of "his kingdom", which is distinct from "the kingdom of their Father", all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then, or at the end of Christ's millennial kingdom rule, shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear.
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
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Try not to get worked up. We got people on this site who go off the deep end with all sorts of things, including conspiracy theories, flat earth, and now this BS. At some pt you just got to let them go on about their tirades, because nothing is going to change their mind -- except the lack of fulfillment of what they warned us about, and even that they may rationalize away.
I hear you.

I don't just post these things or defend certain doctrines for the potential sake of the individual I am addressing, but also for the potential benefit of others who might be following the conversation. That said, I do agree with your assessment that some people will never be swayed from their erroneous beliefs. Your assessment is sad, but quite often true.

Thanks for chiming in.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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^ @seekingthemindofChrist 's posts #101 (addressed to me) and #104,

I must disagree with your placement of both Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 (which you cover in your post #101 and then further re: Matt13 in your post #104), and here's why (very briefly):


--the disciples' Question to Jesus in Matthew 24:3 (which He responds in 2 chpts-worth) was BASED on what He had already spoken to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 regarding "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (not "the end of the WORLD," which they would not have thought to be asking Him about--This is concerning "the end of the age"--the one they were standing in and speaking out from... and which He had also already spoken in the previous chpt [ch 12] about what follows that, which is "the age [singular] to come"--whereas the phrase "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" is speaking of what we call eternity [the eternal state]);


--Matthew 25:31-34's "when the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory..." (an earthly-located throne) corresponds with Matthew 19:28 (time-wise), which states, "...That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel." Compare this also with Luke 22:30, saying, "...That ye may eat and drink at My table IN MY KINGDOM, and sit on thrones judgING the twelve tribes of Israel.";


--ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / etc" passages are speaking to His Second Coming to the earth, to judge and to reign (coming FOR the promised and prophesied earthly MK age)--Matt25 being one of those passages;


--"the kingdom OF THE heavenS" speaks of same ^ (and includes the specific time-period [aka Trib--"the end [singular] of the age [singular]"] that leads UP TO it)--Matt13 being one of those passages (vv.24,31,33,44,4547,52), as well as passages like earlier in Matt25, namely vv.1-13 about "the marriage FEAST / SUPPER" and who [saved mortals] will be granted permission to ENTER it (i.e. the MK age);


--speaking of Matthew 13's "WHEAT" and "tares"... ("harvest" at the end of the age)... note that there is more than one "harvest" in Scripture and in nature... and that this "WHEAT" harvest corresponds with the SECOND of TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Leviticus 23, namely in v.17, where (in connection with the "WHEAT" harvest) it states, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN," and which verse's wording also corresponds with what is stated regarding "the 144,000" in Rev14:4 (12,000 of each of the 12 tribes of Israel listed in Rev7), and those "144,000" will exist IN / DURING the 7-yr Tribulation period, in their role being shown in Rev during that time-frame (in the lead-up to His Second Coming to the earth). It is those "144,000" who are "firstfruit" of the "WHEAT" harvest--wheat is harvested by means of a "tribulum" [harvesting implement]; whereas the EARLIER harvest is harvested by means of "TOSSING UP INTO THE AIR, and BLOWING away the chaff" [connected with the FIRST of the TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in that Lev23 chpt, as I'd mentioned]); "the FURNACE OF the fire" can correspond with what we read of in Lk16, "for I am tormented IN THIS FLAME" (at a point when there still remains time for his brothers not to come there), not necessarily being "the LAKE of Fire," see...;


--there's more... but this is enough for one post :D (it wasn't so "brief" after all... oops!)
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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Humour?

Are you from England?

Just curious because of the spelling. No other reason.

My Canadianism seeps through on occasion. ;)

I do not think the link worked, darn thing technology eh? I need to try again eh!!
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
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I have discernment, and I will tell you plainly that there is no way in the world that Jesus is returning in the year 2030.
Not even close. The covenant that Daniel wrote about involves a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, and what you linked to has absolutely nothing at all to do with that.
Make sure you get a name tag saying "Seeking" so I can find you in heaven if you're wrong. :p
 
Apr 29, 2012
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Cell groups house church, like the churches of Acts.
+1 on that.
consider what watchman nee did in china late 1940's through today. small groups that split into 2 once a certain number of people was reached - 30 if I remember right.
 
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FollowingtheWay

Guest
I don’t know ,I’m a pan -trib. Just going to see how it pans out. being aware that they are all theories. Pre trib made sense for a while but then a person realizes that prior to 1800 that pre trib was not very commonly taught if at all. So I’m holding them loosely just watching times, events unfold.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,799
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Try not to get worked up. We got people on this site who go off the deep end with all sorts of things, including conspiracy theories, flat earth, and now this BS. At some pt you just got to let them go on about their tirades, because nothing is going to change their mind -- except the lack of fulfillment of what they warned us about, and even that they may rationalize away.
Do you know Christ Gojira? Well what does BS mean? We don't say this ever.. in Jesus name