"I ask then why do people say Israel must go through the Tribulation?" Jeremiah 30.6. paraphrased.

[Nehemiah6]

~ Just because someone wrote the words 'But the more commonly received opinion is' does not mean that it was actually true at the time it was written?

WE are not simply depending on opinions. Historical facts confirm that John wrote Revelation around 95/96 AD. Here are excellent reasons:

"Will the internal evidence help?
The advocates of the later date rely much upon the degenerate state of the Asiatic churches, as described in the Epistles to the Seven Churches. The Epistles to the Ephesians, Colossians, and Philemon were written during the captivity of St. Paul at Rome, about the year A.D. 63. If, then, the Apocalypse was written in A.D. 69 or 70, we have only an interval of six or seven years to account for a striking change in the spiritual condition of the Asiatic churches. Can we believe that a Church which is so forward in love as that of Ephesus (Ephesians 3:18) can have in so short a time left its first love? Can it be believed that the Laodicean Church—whoso spiritual condition in A.D. 63 can be inferred from that of Colossæ (Colossians 1:3-4)—can have, in six brief years, forsaken their “faith in Christ Jesus, and their love to all the saints,” and become the “lukewarm” church (Revelation 3:15-16) of the Apocalypse?"

Ellicott's Commentary.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If you would answer, the reasoning would become apparent. Perhaps it already has and that explains your response.

Here's your answer: [In this way, the "cattle" verse, Psalm 50:10, is not appropriately comparable]

 

[GaryA]

What I find amazing is that views contrary to futurism have zero hope for the world. Christ does not return to enforce peace on the earth. Israel is not redeemed. The Church is not raptured. We are all left hanging in a world that is obviously hurling into chaos and catastrophe.

"Bite your tongue..."

This is not true of historicism. The very end of things is identical to the futurist belief - only, when the rapture occurs and what constitutes the 'great tribulation' and the 'Wrath of God' is viewed differently. The same hope. The same 1000-year reign of Christ. The same Israel. And, the Church is most certainly raptured - at the Second Coming of Christ.

Get real. Stop inventing stuff like this when you know it is not true.

 

[GaryA]

When the world follows the New Age Christ and takes his mark then salvation is no longer available to the world and God will then turn to Israel and send them 2 witnesses who will preach to them for the last three and one half years and at the end of that time Israel as a nation will be in the truth.

The Bible says Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in and so all Israel shall be saved.

How can 'all Israel shall be saved' be true if-and-after 'salvation is no longer available to the world' becomes true?

 

[GaryA]

You just got schooled by TDW. But will you accept it and make the necessary corrections to your addled, ludicrous and absurd eschatological views?

When are you going to let TDW "school" you - in how to respond to others with humility and brotherly love instead of the proud arrogant look-down-your-nose-at-them attitude that you have that just seems to refuse to go away...???

"Just wondering..."

You seem to esteem him highly as a teacher of the Word.

He sets a pretty good example in my opinion (in the context of the above remark) - why don't you follow it?

 

[Komentaja]

Did you even read Revelation 11? And then read Revelation 12? And then see 42 months in both chapters? And then realize that that was all about a future temple in John's vision? It is about the reign of the Antichrist. And there was no reign of the Antichrist at that time, or any time since then. That is a future event and even Christ called it a future event. He prophesied of the destruction of the temple which was standing in His presence, then spoke about the Abomination of Desolation which would stand in a future temple in Jerusalem. So how do people get such BIZARRE and unbiblical ideas?

Also, the times dont match AD70 fulfillment of Revelation 11. It didn't take 42 months and also there were no two witnesses and last but not least there was no resurrection. Thats the main point, NO RESURRECTION took place, which means Jesus didn't return.

It honestly is kind of sad we even have to talk about this. Why would anyone believe that Jesus ALREADY returned when the earth is in the mess that its in currently? Makes NO SENSE whatsoever.

I also got some questions about Revelation 11 such as how can a temple with worshipers of antichrist jews be "the temple of God", but I would never suggest that this already happened. I have heard some say that the temple is now the church, which is true that we are the temple of God as Peter says, but I think that does not fit with Revelation 11 because of the mentioning of "outer court" and "Trampled by the gentiles" etc. Its clear this is talking about a literal physical temple imo.

 

[posthuman]

It matters not - Iraneus is not 'credible' in my opinion.

o he works at NASA huh

 

[selahsays]

Ask now, and see, whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; and it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

- Jeremiah 30:6-7

I believe this is surely referring to the latter days. Those who don’t understand what’s going on and don’t understand the things which have already been foretold to us in the the 7 seals, the Olivet prophecy and throughout the Bible, will most likely be in great distress “as a woman in travail”—This is called “Jacob’s trouble“ and it will affect the whole wide world.

Who will be saved? The elect—those who are not deceived—those who understand God’s Word—those who have more than enough oil in their lamps to endure and overcome and run their race until the end—those who will wait unwavering for the true Messiah to appear at the 7th trump.

selah

 

[Cameron143]

You cannot properly answer the question based [strictly] on the information given in the statement - which states that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills - it says nothing about God owning any hills.

(A lesson in 'logic'.)

Of course, we know that God owns everything - so, in reality, He owns all of the hills everywhere. (And, all of the cattle too!)

Psalms 50:

10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

People like to argue about what the word [translated] 'thousand' means here - whether it is 'exactly 1000' or 'some large indefinite number'.

The word [itself] means 'exactly 1000'. And, it always does - without exception. Where it may become nonliteral, if at all, is strictly a matter of context - because, it is the [understanding of the] usage of language that "renders" something to be nonliteral in a context where such may be understood.

You have to look at the words themselves, the sentence structure grammar, the usage of language (based on culture, era, etc.), and the context of the verse/passage - the collective combination of which I like to call the 'grammar of the language'. In other words, it is not just about words and sentence structure grammar - other things also affect the comprehensive meaning.

And, when considering the comprehensive meaning of something in scripture, you also have to look at both the original and translated languages. For example, when reading the KJV, you have to consider the use of language of the original language (e.g. - Greek, Hebrew) AND the use of language of the 'Middle English' language of the KJV also.

Now - I am not saying that no one can get anything out of the Bible without doing extensive study into the original language(s), etc. - in most cases/verses/passages (in/of a good translation), the translation itself takes care of most of that due to the knowlege, understanding, and diligence of the translators who translated it. What I am saying is - if you are going to take an in-depth look at some word or phrase in scripture - sometimes, you have to look at several things together to obtain the proper meaning.

And, these are the types of mistakes that are very often made that result in erroneous interpretations of scripture...

I believe the most common mistake that is made is when someone assumes scripture says something that it does not actually say.

It is very easy to do - you have to be very careful...

So - please be very careful...

Actually, it doesn't mean 1000 in context. It is a large number but it actually represents all.
It doesn't mean every time 1000 is used it has to represent a large indefinite number, but it could. Scripture is understood by scripture and by revelation.
So I appreciate the caution very much, but because a literal meaning comes with every word, nothing would ever be spiritual or representative or all would be or a mixture of the two.
I find it odd that 1000 to some is positively literal when numbers are often used symbolically while direct wording like shortly and at hand are seen as symbolic.

 

[cv5]

When are you going to let TDW "school" you - in how to respond to others with humility and brotherly love instead of the proud arrogant look-down-your-nose-at-them attitude that you have that just seems to refuse to go away...???

"Just wondering..."

You seem to esteem him highly as a teacher of the Word.

He sets a pretty good example in my opinion (in the context of the above remark) - why don't you follow it?

He did school me. I have all of his papers archived. Very valuable digital manuscripts. Use them often.

Still waiting for something of value from you. So far, everything you write goes straight into the data shredder.

 

[Cameron143]

Key word being "YEARS [etē ]".

What I mean is, that every place in Scripture where the word "YEARS" is used along with whatever number ("______ years"), it always means THAT MANY "years" (the writer wants the reader to picture in their minds / think "______ YEARS" [THAT MANY *years*]).






[In this way, the "cattle" verse, Psalm 50:10, is not appropriately comparable]

I generally appreciate the tenor of your posts and the scholarship in them. And the 1000 does refer to 2 different things. But scripture is both interpreted by meaning and context. I have no problem saying the same word can be used literally and figuratively. The point was that this particular number may be used both ways. And at least you actually shared a reason for your particular understanding.
But I find it incredibly disingenuous when a numbers, which are often used symbolically are said not to be figurative when plain language like shortly and at hand are construed to be.

 

[Evmur]

The disciples asked Jesus if He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time and He said the Father will do it in His own time.

God said that He will gather the whole house of Israel back to their land, and leave none of them in the nations anymore, and they shall know the LORD their God from that time forward and He will never hide His face from them again.

Which means Israel will always be in the truth from that point forward so this has to be a future prophesy.

God is going to give world their way for 7 years to rebel against the truth, and when they do then He will end sin on Earth.

The New Age Christ/antichrist shall establish peace in the Middle East and it will pave the way for all Hebrews to go back to the land of Israel for the Gentile nations will see that it happens, and the New Age Christ wants them all back on their land.

The world will be split in to 10 sections, and for the first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world.

When the world follows the New Age Christ and takes his mark then salvation is no longer available to the world and God will then turn to Israel and send them 2 witnesses who will preach to them for the last three and one half years and at the end of that time Israel as a nation will be in the truth.

The Bible says Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in and so all Israel shall be saved.

Some people think the Church replaces Israel but Israel is the Church.

From Abraham to David to Jesus to the millennial reign of Christ to the New Jerusalem it is Israel all the way.

Which the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles of the Lamb are written in the New Jerusalem.

That is why a Gentile when saved becomes a Jew inward, and is part of the commonwealth of Israel.

The Gentile becomes part of the nation of Israel because it is Israel all the way.

Paul said God has not cast off His people that He once foreknew.

God said if the ordinances in heaven are still in operation the sun, moon, and stars, then His covenant is still with Israel, and they shall never cease to be a nation.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

During the first three and one half years Israel as a nation is protected from physical attack.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

During the last three and one half years Israel as a nation is protected from physical attack.

But the Jews that turn to Jesus will be persecuted along with the Gentiles that are with Jesus, but Israel as a nation is protected for the 7 years period until the battle of Armageddon which is part of the wrath of God on the world which then they will attack Israel and Jesus will save them.

This is very thoughtful

Somebody said to me in response to Paul's "and so all Israel shall be saved"
"ok, you are assuming that in the last times Israel is to be converted ... then what about the generations of Jews that have gone before? who have lived and died and not believed in Christ?"

I found this a tough nut to crack. God I know is not so arbitrary as to choose only one generation from the 10s of generations who went before and were not converted. Notwithstanding they had been sent among the nations where the gospel was to be preached [all of God's way are mercy] and yet they found no mercy in the eyes of the church in those nations. The Catholic church made them devils and enemies and a focus of hate and persecution rather than a focus of ministry, sadly Luther carried this over into the Reformed church. And yet many have been saved.

God showed me Daniel. 12. 2-3.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. And those who be wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars for ever and ever.

I saw in a flash

The Jews are to be raised at the time of the Rapture along with the church, not to be raptured but to be gathered to Israel. These are the Millennial saints teaching the nations, turning them to righteousness.

This is the meaning of the parable of the 10 maidens.

 

[Evmur]

Yes. There is no literal 1000 year reign. The church age will go on for a long time. Revelation 7:9 says heaven will be populated by a number of inhabitants that no man can number.
Just out of curiosity, how big do you figure a number that no man can number will be?

This doctrine has been blown

It is based on Augustine's teaching that the church will spread through the whole earth getting stronger and stronger [like the mustard seed] until the whole world is Christian.

But Jesus and the apostles taught that the world would wax worse and worse in the end times. We are not sent to establish the kingdom but to announce it.

The kingdom is real in the hearts of believers. It will become manifest.

 

[Evmur]

Jeremiah 30:

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

This verse is the only place this phrase is found in the Bible - and, it is referring specifically to Armageddon.

It is not [general/generic] 'tribulation'.

It is not [the] 'Great Tribulation'.

It is the specific 'event' referred to in all of the verses in the 'Armageddon' column of the chart/table on this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

Armageddon occurs after the Second Coming of Christ (soon after the time of His appearance).

God does not "deal with Israel" until Armageddon. (And, of course, afterward.)

The 'Dry Bones' prophecy will be fulfilled by Christ after His Second Coming. (It was not fulfilled in 1948 or 1967.)

Israel-as-a-nation still has a part to play during the Millennium. And, in no way is this in conflict with the 'Church' (the body of Christ) or the New Covenant.

Do not conflate what the verse above is saying and the salvation of the souls of the Jews - they are two completely separate things.

The word Tribulation = trouble
The Great Tribulation = the Great trouble
The time of Jacob's trouble such as never was nor shall be again.

 

[Evmur]

What happens if anyone person of the scattered church of the house of Isreal don't make it back to Isreal


The Message



Mark 13:14-23


Run for the Hills
14-18 “But be ready to run for it when you see the monster of desecration set up where it should never be. You who can read, make sure you understand what I’m talking about. If you’re living in Judea at the time, run for the hills; if you’re working in the yard, don’t go back to the house to get anything; if you’re out in the field, don’t go back to get your coat. Pregnant and nursing mothers will have it especially hard. Hope and pray this won’t happen in the middle of winter.

They will be gathered from the four winds of heaven.

Jesus was speaking about the gathering of the Jews when He spoke of two in one bed and one will be taken and one left, two working in the mill and one will be taken and one left. "where Lord? where the carcase is there the eagles will gather"

This is a supernatural gathering just like the Rapture but not to meet the Lord in the clouds but to Israel from whence they will reign.

This run for the hills warning relates only to Jerusalem where the desecration takes place.

 

[posthuman]

I find it odd that 1000 to some is positively literal when numbers are often used symbolically while direct wording like shortly and at hand are seen as symbolic.

well to be fair "shortly" is an indefinite term, but for example 143 is a definite quantity.
so you can see why a person might be more inclined to give interpretive latitude to a word like "soon" than to one like "70“

 

[posthuman]

Actually, it doesn't mean 1000 in context. It is a large number but it actually represents all.

It can't mean "all time" when referencing Satan being bound for 1,000 years ((Rev. 20:3)), because he is loosed again when the thousand years are finished ((Rev 20:7)).



wouldn't "after forever" be equivalent to "never"...?

 

[posthuman]

It can't mean "all time" when referencing Satan being bound for 1,000 years ((Rev. 20:3)), because he is loosed again when the thousand years are finished ((Rev 20:7)).

coincidently between those two verses a millennial reign is written of. so that's the context.

 

[Fundaamental]

They will be gathered from the four winds of heaven.

Jesus was speaking about the gathering of the Jews when He spoke of two in one bed and one will be taken and one left, two working in the mill and one will be taken and one left. "where Lord? where the carcase is there the eagles will gather"

This is a supernatural gathering just like the Rapture but not to meet the Lord in the clouds but to Israel from whence they will reign.

This run for the hills warning relates only to Jerusalem where the desecration takes place.

I'm not this well up on this topic but is the desecration befor the rapture

Or after

 

[Cameron143]

well to be fair "shortly" is an indefinite term, but for example 143 is a definite quantity.
so you can see why a person might be more inclined to give interpretive latitude to a word like "soon" than to one like "70“

Sure. But soon has never been construed to be 2000 years anyplace other than as an explanation of prophetic time.
My cognitive capacity and fitness has been called into question over symbolizing a symbol, while concurrently, the exaggeration of a short period is conflated to mean a long period of time.
Regardless of what one chooses to believe, I could slice you off a nice hypocrisy sandwich at the CC cantina and have plenty left for a sandwich myself.