"I ask then why do people say Israel must go through the Tribulation?" Jeremiah 30.6. paraphrased.

[posthuman]

I did not say that - you are thinking of someone else.

whoops! you're right.
sorry

 

[montana123]

That's the prevailing view here as well. It's my shared belief as well. I think the difference is stemming from whether it is a literal or figurative 1000 years.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:

and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The saints will be caught up to be with Jesus in heaven, and then He will come back and fight the world which is the battle of Armageddon and all the saints will be with Jesus.

Which Revelation describes the same event with Jesus coming back with the host of heaven which are the saints.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Jesus and the saints shall rule over the heathen that God spared at the battle of Armageddon, and they shall not acknowledge any other God, or religious figure, but Jesus, and the knowledge of the LORD shall fill the whole earth, and the heathen have to go to Jerusalem every year to worship the LORD.

This has never happened before and it states it is on earth and the heathen have to go to Jerusalem and worship the LORD which so it is not heaven for there is no heathen in heaven.

So it is a literal millennial reign of Christ.

Satan is cast in to the bottomless pit for 1000 years so there is peace on earth because he is not deceiving the nations, and then he is loosed and stirs up the heathen to go against the saints which God rains fire on them and devours them and the millennial reign is over.

The heathen still have punishment coming for they took the mark of the beast but God postponed their punishment until the end of the millennial reign.

 

[cv5]

I believe He is reigning. He is building His church and the gates of hell are not prevailing against it. When someone sovereignly does as He pleases, is that ruling?
God has worked gradually through history. He has made promises and has patiently and methodically followed a timetable to accomplish that plan.
For instance, He promised shortly after sin to bring redemption through a child. Depending on your timetable of history, that wasn't fulfilled for at least 4 thousand years. Not exactly in a hurry. But all of history was building to that future point.
So, too, God has promised to put all things under Christ. And it will happen. But that doesn't mean it has to be completed immediately. In the same way God fulfilled His plan of redemption through Christ, I believe He is gradually working through history to bring it to fruition. All according to His plan.
You and others make assumptions about what I think because that's how things are perceived if you already have certain beliefs and have drawn conclusions based on those beliefs. I get that. But if you aren't going to take the time to learn the arguments, your assessment will continue to be that its silly. I do understand that sentiment btw. I, personally, find it silly to call a short time period thousands of years but call 1000 years 1000 years. You have literally done the exact same thing as I have but in the opposite direction, but somehow it's perfectly reasonable when you do it.

Re: Your hybrid historicist eschatology
You are long on comments and wishy-washy hopium, short on Bible proofs. Way short.

Your views are hopelessly untethered from Biblical truths and intentionally established patterns, and straightforward readily observable present day reality.

Just to refresh your memory (and @GaryA 's too):
When God "arrived" at Sodom, devastating destruction happened, witnessed by all the nations roundabout.
When God "arrived" to redeem His people in Egypt, there followed vast judgements and destruction, witnessed by all Israel, Egypt, and the nations roundabout.
When God "arrived" at Mt. Sinai to negotiate the Covenant, the mountain quaked, wrapped in dark cloud lightnings and thunderings, with voices booming and accompanied by scores of angels. All witnessed by the entire nation.
When Israel "arrived" at the promised land, the Canaanites were destroyed in a display of divine wrath, witnessed by all the nations roundabout.
When Jesus "arrived" at his First Advent, He was accompanied by miraculous signs, and unparalleled displays of gracious miracles.

This "arrival" pattern and type is Biblical bedrock. Yet you have the temerity/audacity to postulate that the Second Coming in GLORY and devastating judgement (greater than any that has happened before......an event unequalled in all of the history of the universe, where every eye will see Him, and the stars will not give their light) ALREADY HAPPENED IN THE FIRST CENTURY?

No. It certainly DID NOT happen yet. You and @GaryA are way way out of line here. I would urge you to stop teaching this madness, and realign your views to that which the Bible declares.

 

[cv5]

This "arrival" pattern and type is Biblical bedrock. Yet you have the temerity/audacity to postulate that the Second Coming in GLORY and devastating judgement (greater than any that has happened before......an event unequalled in all of the history of the universe, where every eye will see Him, and the stars will not give their light), rapture, and Kingdom age ALREADY HAPPENED IN THE FIRST CENTURY?

 

[cv5]

When the Gentiles take the mark of the beast then the fulness of the Gentiles have come in which means they cannot be saved.

No that's not correct. The "fullness of the Gentiles" begins with the Church age and ends at the Rapture.

So God will turn to Israel and turn them to the truth as a nation.
All Israel shall be saved is the Hebrews who are on earth when Jesus saves them, and the kingdom on earth restored to them.

Pretty much agree with this.

But not all Hebrews will be saved for in the Old Testament if they did not abide by the truth they were cut off, and the Hebrews that rejected Jesus when He was on earth cannot have salvation, or any Hebrews that reject Jesus after hearing about Him sufficiently.

You could be right about that.....
A rather obscure couple of verses....but entirely applicable IMO.

Eze 20:37
And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
Eze 20:38
And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

 

[Cameron143]

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:

and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The saints will be caught up to be with Jesus in heaven, and then He will come back and fight the world which is the battle of Armageddon and all the saints will be with Jesus.

Which Revelation describes the same event with Jesus coming back with the host of heaven which are the saints.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Jesus and the saints shall rule over the heathen that God spared at the battle of Armageddon, and they shall not acknowledge any other God, or religious figure, but Jesus, and the knowledge of the LORD shall fill the whole earth, and the heathen have to go to Jerusalem every year to worship the LORD.

This has never happened before and it states it is on earth and the heathen have to go to Jerusalem and worship the LORD which so it is not heaven for there is no heathen in heaven.

So it is a literal millennial reign of Christ.

Satan is cast in to the bottomless pit for 1000 years so there is peace on earth because he is not deceiving the nations, and then he is loosed and stirs up the heathen to go against the saints which God rains fire on them and devours them and the millennial reign is over.

The heathen still have punishment coming for they took the mark of the beast but God postponed their punishment until the end of the millennial reign.

I appreciate you sharing. You gave alot of verses and then some commentary which is great. So let's take it slowly if that's ok with you.
What is the time period being talked about according to you? And, what verses are you using to establish this as the time period?

 

[cv5]

Re: Your hybrid historicist eschatology
You are long on comments and wishy-washy hopium, short on Bible proofs. Way short.

Your views are hopelessly untethered from Biblical truths and intentionally established patterns, and straightforward readily observable present day reality.

Just to refresh your memory (and @GaryA 's too):
When God "arrived" at Sodom, devastating destruction happened, witnessed by all the nations roundabout.
When God "arrived" to redeem His people in Egypt, there followed vast judgements and destruction, witnessed by all Israel, Egypt, and the nations roundabout.
When God "arrived" at Mt. Sinai to negotiate the Covenant, the mountain quaked, wrapped in dark cloud lightnings and thunderings, with voices booming and accompanied by scores of angels. All witnessed by the entire nation.
When Israel "arrived" at the promised land, the Canaanites were destroyed in a display of divine wrath, witnessed by all the nations roundabout.
When Jesus "arrived" at his First Advent, He was accompanied by miraculous signs, and unparalleled displays of gracious miracles.

This "arrival" pattern and type is Biblical bedrock. Yet you have the temerity/audacity to postulate that the Second Coming in GLORY and devastating judgement (greater than any that has happened before......an event unequalled in all of the history of the universe, where every eye will see Him, and the stars will not give their light) ALREADY HAPPENED IN THE FIRST CENTURY?

No. It certainly DID NOT happen yet. You and @GaryA are way way out of line here. I would urge you to stop teaching this madness, and realign your views to that which the Bible declares.

When Jesus "arrived" at his First Advent, He was accompanied by miraculous signs, and unparalleled displays of gracious miracles, witnessed by the entire nation and all the nations roundabout.

And duly recorded by those chosen for that task.

 

[montana123]

I appreciate you sharing. You gave alot of verses and then some commentary which is great. So let's take it slowly if that's ok with you.
What is the time period being talked about according to you? And, what verses are you using to establish this as the time period?

God is giving the world 7 years to have their way and cause all people who do not love Him to follow the New Age Christ, and when they take his mark repentance and salvation is no longer available to the world, and God will end sin on earth.

But the deception started before the 7 years period which is the new age movement that will change the operation of God on earth to the operation of people, and their religion, and reality, that exalts people to evolve to be spiritual, and a god, and there is no God.

When the New Age Christ/antichrist establishes peace in the Middle East he will be considered a great man of peace, and the biggest player on the world scene, and he will push the agenda of the new age movement and things will change drastically, and he will have support of the nations governments, and arms shall stand on his part, and by peace he shall destroy many.

The first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world, and he will push the agenda of the new age movement to prepare the world for when he claims to be God.

They will stop the preaching of the Gospel, and the concept of a God, and stop anything taught contrary to the new age movement saying it is not the truth, and they want peace, which all religions will be interpreted by the new age movement.

At the end of the three and one half years the transgressors will have come to the full and the New Age Christ will claim to be God by evolving to be spiritual, and a god, and the highest exalted human for he is Lucifer inhabiting a human man, and will say he will share this power with all people that follow him and take his mark and they will evolve along with the New Age Christ.

Then he will make war against all people who oppose him for three and one half years and at the end of that time Jesus will take His people off the earth, and the wrath of God will be poured upon the world, and then Jesus and the saints will rule over the people that God spared for 1000 years.

Jesus said until heaven and earth pass away not one tittle or jot shall depart form the law until all has been fulfilled.

Which He is a sinless man doing the will of God perfectly, and fulfilled all the roles of Israel, perfect King, High Priest, Prophet, Saint, Mediator, and is the sacrifice, and the temple, and whatever else He had to fulfill.

But Jesus did not fulfill the role of perfect King on earth and it must be done on earth for the law must be fulfilled on earth.

So Jesus will rule the world for 1000 years as the perfect King on earth and at the end of that time the millennial reign of over and heaven and earth shall pass away.

Which the earth shall be burned up and all the works of it, and the heavens shall melt with fervent heat.

And there will be a new heaven and earth and the former shall not be remembered, or come to mind.

When the New Age Christ establishes peace in the Middle East the world only has 7 more years to go and God will end sin on Earth, and then the millennial reign will begin.

 

[Cameron143]

God is giving the world 7 years to have their way and cause all people who do not love Him to follow the New Age Christ, and when they take his mark repentance and salvation is no longer available to the world, and God will end sin on earth.

But the deception started before the 7 years period which is the new age movement that will change the operation of God on earth to the operation of people, and their religion, and reality, that exalts people to evolve to be spiritual, and a god, and there is no God.

When the New Age Christ/antichrist establishes peace in the Middle East he will be considered a great man of peace, and the biggest player on the world scene, and he will push the agenda of the new age movement and things will change drastically, and he will have support of the nations governments, and arms shall stand on his part, and by peace he shall destroy many.

The first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world, and he will push the agenda of the new age movement to prepare the world for when he claims to be God.

They will stop the preaching of the Gospel, and the concept of a God, and stop anything taught contrary to the new age movement saying it is not the truth, and they want peace, which all religions will be interpreted by the new age movement.

At the end of the three and one half years the transgressors will have come to the full and the New Age Christ will claim to be God by evolving to be spiritual, and a god, and the highest exalted human for he is Lucifer inhabiting a human man, and will say he will share this power with all people that follow him and take his mark and they will evolve along with the New Age Christ.

Then he will make war against all people who oppose him for three and one half years and at the end of that time Jesus will take His people off the earth, and the wrath of God will be poured upon the world, and then Jesus and the saints will rule over the people that God spared for 1000 years.

Jesus said until heaven and earth pass away not one tittle or jot shall depart form the law until all has been fulfilled.

Which He is a sinless man doing the will of God perfectly, and fulfilled all the roles of Israel, perfect King, High Priest, Prophet, Saint, Mediator, and is the sacrifice, and the temple, and whatever else He had to fulfill.

But Jesus did not fulfill the role of perfect King on earth and it must be done on earth for the law must be fulfilled on earth.

So Jesus will rule the world for 1000 years as the perfect King on earth and at the end of that time the millennial reign of over and heaven and earth shall pass away.

Which the earth shall be burned up and all the works of it, and the heavens shall melt with fervent heat.

And there will be a new heaven and earth and the former shall not be remembered, or come to mind.

When the New Age Christ establishes peace in the Middle East the world only has 7 more years to go and God will end sin on Earth, and then the millennial reign will begin.

You are very kind to give such an informed reply. What I was actually looking for is the time in history that the verses were referring to and specifically the verses that identify the particular time.
I'm not looking for exact dates but the time period. For example...first century, present day,etc.

 

[selahsays]

I appreciate you sharing. You gave alot of verses and then some commentary which is great. So let's take it slowly if that's ok with you.
What is the time period being talked about according to you? And, what verses are you using to establish this as the time period?

One thing that’s extremely helpful to know regarding timelines is that anytime you read “The Day of the Lord” or “The Lord’s Day,” it is referring to the day that Christ returns to earth as King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the Second Coming (or the second advent) of Jesus Christ. Sometimes, it may be written in other ways; for example, notice in Zechariah 14:9: And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be—"The LORD is one," And His name one.

Also, we need to know that the Day of the Lord brings in the Millennium.

selah

 

[Cameron143]

One thing that’s extremely helpful to know regarding timelines is that anytime you read “The Day of the Lord” or “The Lord’s Day,” it is referring to the day that Christ returns to earth as King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the Second Coming (or the second advent) of Jesus Christ. Sometimes, it may be written in other ways; for example, notice in Zechariah 14:9: And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be—"The LORD is one," And His name one.

Also, we need to know that the Day of the Lord brings in the Millennium.

selah

I appreciate that bit of insight but I'm not sure the Day of the Lord and the Lord's day are the same. I believe the Lord's Day refers to the first day of the week.

 

[selahsays]

I appreciate that bit of insight but I'm not sure the Day of the Lord and the Lord's day are the same. I believe the Lord's Day refers to the first day of the week.

Yeah, I’m afraid lots of folks think that. I’ll let you research this out on your own. Blessings.

 

[selahsays]

@Cameron143

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."

- Revelation 1:10-11

 

[Cameron143]

Yeah, I’m afraid lots of folks think that. I’ll let you research this out on your own. Blessings.

Just one question, if you don't mind. In Revelation 1, John has the vision on the Lord's Day. Was that the day of the Lord?

 

[Cameron143]

@Cameron143

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."

- Revelation 1:10-11

I'm familiar with the verse. So what does it mean or signify? Is it a particular day of the week? Is it a particular time?

 

[selahsays]

I'm familiar with the verse. So what does it mean or signify? Is it a particular day of the week? Is it a particular time?

This Day of the Lord is the same Day that Paul writes about in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 as coming as a thief in the night. It is an event, the Second Coming/the Millennium. John was taken spiritually to a time in the future—to the Millennium!

 

[Magenta]

Why do people say God will reign in the physical state of Israel when the Kingdom of the
world will become the Kingdom of the Lord,and that the kingdom of God is within?

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away,
and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven
from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the
throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them.
They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God." Revelation 21:1-3

 

[Cameron143]

This Day of the Lord is the same Day that Paul writes about in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 as coming as a thief in the night. It is an event, the Second Coming/the Millennium. John was taken spiritually to a time in the future—to the Millennium!

Thanks for explaining your position.

 

[Inquisitor]

Evidently, what is hard is to get people to look out their window and see that the "end-time" prophetic stage is being set.....right now today.

Israel the nation has been reformed and is in the land. A gigantic 800lbs gorilla in the room "sign" to the universe. Wake up everybody.
And the slightest geopolitical re-jiggering and UP GOES THE TEMPLE.

You honestly believe that the nation of Israel will install the law of Moses, as the national law in Israel.

The Levitical Priesthood will govern Israel and reboot the sacrifice of oxen in the temple.

The temple will be rebuilt on the temple mount.

Why would a secular nation build a religious temple for sacrificing animals, for their sins?

This is probably the most extremist interpretation I have ever read.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Why would a secular nation build a religious temple for sacrificing animals, for their sins?

There will be no "secular nation" after the Second Coming of Christ. To get answers to your questions kindly read and study the prophecy of Ezekiel. In view of what we know about the New Covenant, it seems like an anomaly. But the New Covenant itself is embedded in this book. Obviously we do not have the full picture, but there is no question that there will be a fourth temple in Jerusalem, but it will not be desecrated ever again. This temple will in fact have God within.