I was just in a Christian chat room (not here)

[Tanaya]

What they might mean by that is, the Bible itself doesn't say what books are in it - the early church sorted out what was scripture and what was not. and the Bible doesn't tell us for example everything a church meeting should look like, or how it should be organized ((tho it does say some things)) - so all the details of that didn't come from 'sola scriptura'

this is a justificatiom for the liturgies they keep, because they are traditions handed down to them over 1500 years. protestants will say, those things are not in the Bible, we should not treat them like anything but tradition. the orthodox will answer, the Bible isn't the only source of authority - the Holy Spirit is also a source of authority, and these traditions started with people who had the Holy Spirit.

It gets to be a messy and deep question about what is really authority from God. like the RCC says the pope is, whatever he says is like coming straight from God.
protestants arrived at sola scriptura ((only scripture)) as a reaction to, frankly, bad popes and bad decisions by the RCC that were clearly in conflict with scripture.

we may not be able to tell always if someone is speaking from God or not, but we DO know that the Bible is from Him, so we know everything in it is true and right, and we can use it as a 'test' because no one really speaking by the Spirit will contradict it.

Yes, I watched a documentary about Martin Luther and why he started the Reformation and I could relate to a lot of his reasons but it hasn't necessarily solved the problems he was trying to solve (within the church) as there's still corruption within some Protestant churches till this day and I also disagreed with his views on the Jewish people and he seemed to come off as antisemitic in some of the commentaries on the jewish people (jews who wouldn't convert to Christianity), but he was a human being and not perfect so just because he had some questionable views on a group of people I won't say everything he said was incorrect or not worth taking into consideration. Here's the doc I watched in case you were interested in it:

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

It's interesting I could say orthodox and Catholics both have claim and the Lutheran churches also, I guess it depends on how you interpret it. I can't say I'm well versed enough to know how to decipher the more bible yet especially when it's not an English standard version, so forgive me for being a little slow to understanding,

The problem we are facing today is the same problem that the early church faced.

1 Corinthians 1:10-13

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

Back in Paul's day, some were saying "I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas (Peter)", and Christ was getting lost in the shuffle. In our day and age, some are saying "I am of Calvin (Calvinists), and I of Wesley (Wesleyans), and I of Luther (Lutherans), and Christ is still getting lost in the shuffle. If any "church" tells you that it is "the one true church", then run from it as if you were running for your life. Again, the "church" or ekklēsia is the worldwide body of believers in Jesus Christ who have been called out of darkness and into his marvelous light. Once any "church" starts seeing itself as the doorway to salvation, you can know, for sure, that it suffers greatly from pride, and you should literally run away from such a place. There is only one door into the sheepfold of God, and that door is Jesus Christ (John 10:9).

Paul went on to point out the carnality of the saints in Corinth, in that they were focused on flesh and blood ministers, and not on Christ himself, when he said:

1 Corinthians 3:1-15

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Whatever you do going forward, make sure that Jesus Christ is the foundation upon which you build, and not any man or church.

 

[Tanaya]

In all honesty the Roman Catholics, the Orthodox churches, and all protestants agree on the basic points of the gospel:

That Christ is fully God and fully man, uncreated, eternal - and He came to save us from sin by dying on the cross for us, paying our debt in full, that He rose the 3rd day and ascended to heaven to prepare a place for us, that He will come again to gather us to Himself, and that He will judge the world. that salvation is by God's grace, through faith in Him, and all believers should be baptized with water, confessing that faith, and try to live righteous lives, turning away from our sin, forgiving others just as we have been forgiven.

so don't be too worried, Tanaya

Thank you! I am an overthinker which I feel all of you have witnessed but like you said ultimately we're all saved by God's grace and called to sin no more I feel as long as we as Christians stick to that and still have respect for our brothers and sisters in christ that differ on things like rituals etc. we can not only help one another but be a light to this world and help others come to christ also.

 

[Tanaya]

The problem we are facing today is the same problem that the early church faced.

1 Corinthians 1:10-13

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

Back in Paul's day, some were saying "I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas (Peter)", and Christ was getting lost in the shuffle. In our day and age, some are saying "I am of Calvin (Calvinists), and I of Wesley (Wesleyans), and I of Luther (Lutherans), and Christ is still getting lost in the shuffle. If any "church" tells you that it is "the one true church", then run from it as if you were running for your life. Again, the "church" or ekklēsia is the worldwide body of believers in Jesus Christ who have been called out of darkness and into his marvelous light. Once any "church" starts seeing itself as the doorway to salvation, you can know, for sure, that it suffers greatly from pride, and you should literally run away from such a place. There is only one door into the sheepfold of God, and that door is Jesus Christ (John 10:9).

Paul went on to point out the carnality of the saints in Corinth, in that they were focused on flesh and blood ministers, and not on Christ himself, when he said:

1 Corinthians 3:1-15

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Whatever you do going forward, make sure that Jesus Christ is the foundation upon which you build, and not any man or church.

Thank you I truly feel so much calmer in the matter after corresponding with all of you and I've taken all your advice on board and realised that it truly doesn't matter which church I attend along as they are preaching the true gospel of Christ Jesus I will be happy with that, so thank you again I am very grateful for of your guy's guidance!

 

[Locoponydirtman]

It's a greek orthodox church
The Greek Orthodox Church of the Virgin Mary Eleousa it's name.

I don't know if I agree with the glamour of it all (hope that makes sense) and veneration of icons, I'm not too strict on pictures in religious places but I don't feel like I need to venerate them in any way as I have a pretty vivid imagination myself so if I meditate on Jesus I can bring up an image of him pretty easily without needing the icons and venerating etc. and I also don't imagery to feel Gods spirit sometimes it images can be too distracting for me.

You sound reasonable, and i agree with you on veneration of icons even though i like the pictures and statues. They are just pictures and statues, they have no spiritual value.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

All you can really do is research their beliefs and teachings and compare to what the Bible says.

 

[Tanaya]

All you can really do is research their beliefs and teachings and compare to what the Bible says.

Yes, that's what I'm currently doing slowly but surely, I have reached out to the father there but I think I might just need to visit just to get a feel for the place, I've never been to an orthodox church and if I'm being honest I wasn't too aware there was even orthodoxy until a year ago, I thought it was just a cultural kind of Christianity if that makes sense

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

...I have reached out to the father there...

 

[studentoftheword]

Nehemiah6----had posted this link in an earlier post and I read it and thought I would post some things I saw that went against scripture -----so posting the link again here ------

https://www.goarch.org/-/how-are-we-saved-

the orthodox church

----has some disturbing backward thinking in it in my view--------so one needs to be careful and understand what the right way to divide the Word is ----also you need to know your Scripture so you can weed out the wrong teachings so your not deceived ------

the orthodox church says ----this is a twisted Statement and wrongly dividing God's word in my view------

We do not judge the sincere convictions of other Christians, lest we be judged, according to the words of the Lord (Mat 7:1)

I say ---------Rightly dividing the Word
A true Christian is to judge the convictions of other Christians -----True Christians are not to judge unbelievers as they are living as they should in this world ----

-Jesus continually Judged His Fellow Pharisees actions and for their twisted ideas -----adding their own laws to God's etc ---called them hypocrites
Paul judged Peter to his face -----for his actions -----if a True Believer doesn't judge the wrong actions of a Brother or Sister in Christ then they are just as bad as the Christian doing the wrong behaviour ----


So here they say this ------which is rightly dividing the Word

Justification by faith is an authentic teaching of the New Testament.

It is also a part of Orthodox teaching because whatever the New Testament teaches as essential, the Orthodox Church teaches as well.


I say -------Then they contradict themselves here when talking Healing -----about Faith ------saying Grace is more important than Faith ----

The role of faith was significant but secondary to divine grace.

I say ---------Wrongly dividing the Word -here ----God's Grace comes through God's Faith in Him ------Faith is always first

Then here they say ------
God provided the grace, faith received the gift.

I say ------Well it depends on how they view Grace here -----as Grace here is a person not a thing ------Jesus is Grace ----God the Father sent His Son who is full of Grace

John 1:14
ESV
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

but the Truth is ---------

You can't access Jesus who is Grace without First having God's Faith -inbirthed in you by and through hearing the Word ----only then do you access Jesus who is Grace -----Faith is needed to even please God -----
Then they say this =======

But Jesus also demanded good works to go along with faith.

I say --------This shows that they have no idea about God's Faith and How powerful His Faith is -----so this is wrongly dividing the Word -----

The Parable of the Good Samaritan clarifies this ----and shows how Faith Moves You to the Right Action -

God's Faith will move you to do good works so God gets the Glory --------

Good works doesn't go along with Faith ----AS THEY SAY ------good works comes through Faith

They say ------The teaching of the New Testament is that God’s grace, our free will, and our faith and good works, are intimately connected.

I say --well --for me they would have to explain how they see that ----

As for me Faith links us with Grace and our Faith produces good works -----and we have free will to accept or reject God's pulling on our hearts to receive His Faith which leads to salvation ------

They say -------The Holy Spirit energizes in us both faith and good works as we thirst for and seek God’s grace.

I say -----that is not right ----------God's Word strengthens our Faith not the Holy Spirit and Faith produces Good Works -----the more your in the Word the stronger your Faith becomes -----

They again say ------ A person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:17, 22, 24). By free will, faith, and earnest labors, we work together with the grace of God in the awesome gift and mystery of salvation.

I say -----so James here is speaking of a non producing Faith -----so it explains that in the Old Testament Abraham believed God and obeyed His Command ------and by obeying God his Faith was shown to God ---so Abraham by His acting on God's Command first was justified as he trusted God and this showed his Faith in God by his obedience ----

Old Testament way -------action showed Faith -----so you were still justified by your faith -------

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

Faith and Works…
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God.

24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute justified by her actions when she welcomed the spies and sent them off on another route?


I say
In the New Testament ----Faith is inbirthed in us as we hear the Word when we receive God's call to have a heart change --- ----so God's Faith is a producing Faith and therefore it propels us into action ------

So New Testament Faith produces action ----obedience -----

So understanding how Faith works in both the Old and New Testament is needed to get the right insight into what the scripture is saying -----in my view -----

 

[Tanaya]

Nehemiah6----had posted this link in an earlier post and I read it and thought I would post some things I saw that went against scripture -----so posting the link again here ------

https://www.goarch.org/-/how-are-we-saved-

the orthodox church

----has some disturbing backward thinking in it in my view--------so one needs to be careful and understand what the right way to divide the Word is ----also you need to know your Scripture so you can weed out the wrong teachings so your not deceived ------

the orthodox church says ----this is a twisted Statement and wrongly dividing God's word in my view------

We do not judge the sincere convictions of other Christians, lest we be judged, according to the words of the Lord (Mat 7:1)

I say ---------Rightly dividing the Word
A true Christian is to judge the convictions of other Christians -----True Christians are not to judge unbelievers as they are living as they should in this world ----

-Jesus continually Judged His Fellow Pharisees actions and for their twisted ideas -----adding their own laws to God's etc ---called them hypocrites
Paul judged Peter to his face -----for his actions -----if a True Believer doesn't judge the wrong actions of a Brother or Sister in Christ then they are just as bad as the Christian doing the wrong behaviour ----


So here they say this ------which is rightly dividing the Word

Justification by faith is an authentic teaching of the New Testament.

It is also a part of Orthodox teaching because whatever the New Testament teaches as essential, the Orthodox Church teaches as well.


I say -------Then they contradict themselves here when talking Healing -----about Faith ------saying Grace is more important than Faith ----

The role of faith was significant but secondary to divine grace.

I say ---------Wrongly dividing the Word -here ----God's Grace comes through God's Faith in Him ------Faith is always first

Then here they say ------
God provided the grace, faith received the gift.

I say ------Well it depends on how they view Grace here -----as Grace here is a person not a thing ------Jesus is Grace ----God the Father sent His Son who is full of Grace

John 1:14
ESV
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

but the Truth is ---------

You can't access Jesus who is Grace without First having God's Faith -inbirthed in you by and through hearing the Word ----only then do you access Jesus who is Grace -----Faith is needed to even please God -----
Then they say this =======

But Jesus also demanded good works to go along with faith.

I say --------This shows that they have no idea about God's Faith and How powerful His Faith is -----so this is wrongly dividing the Word -----

The Parable of the Good Samaritan clarifies this ----and shows how Faith Moves You to the Right Action -

God's Faith will move you to do good works so God gets the Glory --------

Good works doesn't go along with Faith ----AS THEY SAY ------good works comes through Faith

They say ------The teaching of the New Testament is that God’s grace, our free will, and our faith and good works, are intimately connected.

I say --well --for me they would have to explain how they see that ----

As for me Faith links us with Grace and our Faith produces good works -----and we have free will to accept or reject God's pulling on our hearts to receive His Faith which leads to salvation ------

They say -------The Holy Spirit energizes in us both faith and good works as we thirst for and seek God’s grace.

I say -----that is not right ----------God's Word strengthens our Faith not the Holy Spirit and Faith produces Good Works -----the more your in the Word the stronger your Faith becomes -----

They again say ------ A person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:17, 22, 24). By free will, faith, and earnest labors, we work together with the grace of God in the awesome gift and mystery of salvation.

I say -----so James here is speaking of a non producing Faith -----so it explains that in the Old Testament Abraham believed God and obeyed His Command ------and by obeying God his Faith was shown to God ---so Abraham by His acting on God's Command first was justified as he trusted God and this showed his Faith in God by his obedience ----

Old Testament way -------action showed Faith -----so you were still justified by your faith -------

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

Faith and Works…
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God.

24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute justified by her actions when she welcomed the spies and sent them off on another route?


I say
In the New Testament ----Faith is inbirthed in us as we hear the Word when we receive God's call to have a heart change --- ----so God's Faith is a producing Faith and therefore it propels us into action ------

So New Testament Faith produces action ----obedience -----

So understanding how Faith works in both the Old and New Testament is needed to get the right insight into what the scripture is saying -----in my view -----

Thank you, so you're basically stating that some of the orthodox church could be misinterpreting scripture?

I'm personally just focusing on reading the bible as of now so I can be more strong in my faith which in turn will help me when I do eventually attempt to find a church home again

 

[studentoftheword]

Thank you, so you're basically stating that some of the orthodox church could be misinterpreting scripture?

Your welcome ---

 

[Edify]

Hi Tanaya,
It can be a little confusing taking in so much content. I may have a proper solution for you.
Hebrews 4:
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let’s hold firmly to our confession. 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. 16Therefore let’s approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace for help at the time of our need.

Your ability to access the throne of grace is just as equal as all of us. You should take your need directly to the Father, asking in the name of Jesus where you should go to worship, with no pre-determined plan of which denomination/background of where you would go. Allow Christ to lead you as one of His lambs.

Jesus made the way where we can boldly approach the throne of grace. Take advantage of it.

 

[posthuman]

The role of faith was significant but secondary to divine grace.

I say ---------Wrongly dividing the Word -here ----God's Grace comes through God's Faith in Him ------Faith is always first

Then here they say ------
God provided the grace, faith received the gift.

faith in a God who was not graceful towards us would be void - and God is first, not man.

Christ died for us while we were dead in sin, faithless and unbelieving.

 

[posthuman]

the orthodox church says ----this is a twisted Statement and wrongly dividing God's word in my view------

We do not judge the sincere convictions of other Christians, lest we be judged, according to the words of the Lord (Mat 7:1)

I say ---------Rightly dividing the Word
A true Christian is to judge the convictions of other Christians -----True Christians are not to judge unbelievers as they are living as they should in this world ----

bear in mind, brother:

Romans 14:1-6
Receive one who is weak in the faith, [but] not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats [only] vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. One person esteems [one] day above another; another esteems every day [alike.] Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes [it] to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe [it.] He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.


i do not think their statement is about rank heresy, but about things which can be argued and are secondary to the core of our faith.

 

[Tanaya]

Hi Tanaya,
It can be a little confusing taking in so much content. I may have a proper solution for you.
Hebrews 4:
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let’s hold firmly to our confession. 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. 16Therefore let’s approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace for help at the time of our need.

Your ability to access the throne of grace is just as equal as all of us. You should take your need directly to the Father, asking in the name of Jesus where you should go to worship, with no pre-determined plan of which denomination/background of where you would go. Allow Christ to lead you as one of His lambs.

Jesus made the way where we can boldly approach the throne of grace. Take advantage of it.

Thank you, I've been doing that now, just feeling a little overwhelmed at the moment.