Christian Fundamentalist kills 77

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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#1
#1
I would like to hear others' comments on the shooting in Norway, where it was a Christian Fundamentalist (according to Fundamentalists' definition of the term) who carried out the shooting.

Do you feel reporters should not have even labeled him as Christian (since there is nothing in Christianity that teaches that his behavior was acceptable)? When Muslim extremists carry out heinous crimes like this, does it make a difference that they are labeled "extremists," implying the same thing about Islam (that it does not teach violence, but rather some within the religion twist it to say that, just as this man twists Christianity to justify his actions)?

Am eager to hear what others think.
 
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Ali22

Guest
#2
#2
From what I've heard in the news, the shooter was suffering from war-zone mentality. Besides, it doesn't make sense to me why a Christian would go around killing other believers and still be labeled as "fundamentalist".
 
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rodogg

Guest
#3
#3
He wasn't a Christian by any definition of the word. He was either mentally unstable or he was part of a far deeper agenda. I won't start "conspiracy theories" though. It's all easy enough to find out yourself. :)
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#4
#4
Ali22 said:
From what I've heard in the news, the shooter was suffering from war-zone mentality. Besides, it doesn't make sense to me why a Christian would go around killing other believers and still be labeled as "fundamentalist".
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Because the label "fundamentalist" has a specific meaning, which he fit. There is nothing in the label of "fundamentalist" that precludes killing. One might argue that there is something in the label of "Christian" that precludes killing, but since many Christians join the military, hunt for food, etc. (and, IMHO, are perfectly within their rights to do so), you'd have a hard time proving that, either.

A fundamentalist is one who sticks to the Seven Fundamentals of Christian Faith, according to a series of articles published in the early 20th Century. Those Fundamentals include inerrancy in a literal interpretation of Scripture, acceptance of the atonement doctrine (substitution theory), and others. However, none of the Fundamentals include an eschewing of violence.

If our Norwegian shooter embraces the Seven Fundamentals, then he is a Christian Fundamentalist, no matter how much anyone else dislikes him.

I would venture to say that most fundamentalists would disagree with what this man did, and would even condemn it. Just as most Muslims disagree with what Muslim terrorists are doing.

In other words, his behavior was not typical of a Christian Fundamentalist. But that doesn't mean he wasn't one.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#5
#5
rodogg said:
He wasn't a Christian by any definition of the word. He was either mentally unstable or he was part of a far deeper agenda. I won't start "conspiracy theories" though. It's all easy enough to find out yourself. :)
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Don't you think it's possible that he was a Christian -- maybe even devoutly so -- but due to his mental instability, committed a grievous sin.

Or are you saying, perhaps, that if you ever commit a crime, you can't be a Christian?
 
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rodogg

Guest
#6
#6
TheGrungeDiva said:
Don't you think it's possible that he was a Christian -- maybe even devoutly so -- but due to his mental instability, committed a grievous sin.

Or are you saying, perhaps, that if you ever commit a crime, you can't be a Christian?
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Fair point. He could of course have been both mentally unstable and a Christian. And no, of course I don't think that anyone who sins/commits a crime is not a Christian. We can all have an error of judgement or have a slip up. But Jesus will take us back. I think my problem here is the complete premeditation of the whole thing. I don't believe anyone who is truely Christian i.e a follower of Christ and one who tries to imitate him in everything he does could have planned this so far in advance. Most of our sins are in the heat of the moment. We try our best all the time, but we have our falls. But when we take ourselves so far away from Jesus as to plan something this sinful for so long, we are no longer following Jesus, and thus not a Christian. But I would safely say the story of his being a "Christian Fundamentalist" is basically a lie. Only the man who did it knows what was going on.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#7
#7
rodogg said:
But when we take ourselves so far away from Jesus as to plan something this sinful for so long, we are no longer following Jesus, and thus not a Christian.
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So, someone who makes strategies about war, deciding where to attack, considering acceptable losses, is not a Christian? After all, they are planning on killing people. Sure, maybe the people they are killing "deserve it," while the victims of this shooter were innocent. But in his mind, these kids were casualties of war. He needed to make a statement, and this was how he did it. I would put him in the same category as someone who shoots an abortion doctor, rationalizing that one death that saves hundreds, maybe even thousands of lives, is worth it. What he did was wrong, clearly. But in his mind, it's no worse than anyone else who plans a war.

So unless you're saying that those in the military are not Christian, I think you're missing the point.

But I would safely say the story of his being a "Christian Fundamentalist" is basically a lie.
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Nope, not a lie. (Unlike a lot of things you seem to have been told.) He has stated, himself, that he accepts the Christian fundamentals. Therefore he is a Christian fundamentalist. A highly dangerous and, I would say, mistaken one, but one nonetheless.
 
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rodogg

Guest
#8
#8
TheGrungeDiva said:
So, someone who makes strategies about war, deciding where to attack, considering acceptable losses, is not a Christian? After all, they are planning on killing people. Sure, maybe the people they are killing "deserve it," while the victims of this shooter were innocent. But in his mind, these kids were casualties of war. He needed to make a statement, and this was how he did it. I would put him in the same category as someone who shoots an abortion doctor, rationalizing that one death that saves hundreds, maybe even thousands of lives, is worth it. What he did was wrong, clearly. But in his mind, it's no worse than anyone else who plans a war.

So unless you're saying that those in the military are not Christian, I think you're missing the point.



Nope, not a lie. (Unlike a lot of things you seem to have been told.) He has stated, himself, that he accepts the Christian fundamentals. Therefore he is a Christian fundamentalist. A highly dangerous and, I would say, mistaken one, but one nonetheless.
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All I was saying was that a true follower of Christ doesn't do those things. Mental instability or a skewed perception of the teachings of Christ are a different topic. I'm not missing any point. I'm not saying that those in the military aren't Christian. I do however know that quite often they are fighting wars on the agenda of evil Governments. This man was doing what he was doing on a particular agenda. And it wasn't a Christian one, no matter what he may have believed.

And what is it that I have been told that is a lie?
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#9
#9
rodogg said:
And what is it that I have been told that is a lie?
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From the other thread, it is clear that you have been misinformed about many things, including what Obama believes. But that is for discussion in the other thread. I simply wanted to answer your question here.
 
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rainacorn

Guest
#10
#10
Most "Christians" aren't followers of Christ, just sayin.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#12
#12
rainacorn said:
Most "Christians" aren't followers of Christ, just sayin.
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Ummm ... sorry, but you're wrong. If you are a Christian, you are a follower of Christ. If you're not a follower of Christ, you're not a Christian.

And either way, no mortal has the right to judge the salvation of any other mortal. You can only decide your own faith, you cannot decide that for others.

Just saying.
 
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rainacorn

Guest
#14
#14
TheGrungeDiva said:
Ummm ... sorry, but you're wrong. If you are a Christian, you are a follower of Christ. If you're not a follower of Christ, you're not a Christian.

And either way, no mortal has the right to judge the salvation of any other mortal. You can only decide your own faith, you cannot decide that for others.

Just saying.
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I put it in quotes for a reason.

Anyone can say they are a Christian. They can even say they love Jesus. Muslims say they love Jesus. However there is only one yard stick and only one truth. You're either measuring up or you're not. I'm not going to be the one to judge that for others, but it's what we have to use to measure ourselves if we're interested in living a Christian life. If people are inventing their own yard sticks (being a generally 'good person') and ignoring the one that is rooted in truth (the Bible), then they're only meeting their own low standards and applying the label of "Christian" to it... not being actual Christians.

Straight road. Narrow gate.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#15
#15
rainacorn said:
I put it in quotes for a reason.

Anyone can say they are a Christian. They can even say they love Jesus. Muslims say they love Jesus. However there is only one yard stick and only one truth. You're either measuring up or you're not. I'm not going to be the one to judge that for others, but it's what we have to use to measure ourselves if we're interested in living a Christian life. If people are inventing their own yard sticks (being a generally 'good person') and ignoring the one that is rooted in truth (the Bible), then they're only meeting their own low standards and applying the label of "Christian" to it... not being actual Christians.

Straight road. Narrow gate.
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But Muslims don't CLAIM to be Christians.

I hear you, sometimes I meet someone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't seem, to me, to embrace Jesus' teachings. For example, every Christian republican I've ever met.

But does that mean they're not Christian, just because they don't measure up to MY yardstick? By no means. The only yardstick they have to measure up to, as you say, is Jesus.

And if they claim to be a Christian, I have to accept that they are. They might not be, but that's not for me to decide. Nor is it for you to decide. To tell someone they are not Christian if they claim they are is to usurp God's power, which is a mighty big sin.
 
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rainacorn

Guest
#16
#16
TheGrungeDiva said:
But Muslims don't CLAIM to be Christians.

I hear you, sometimes I meet someone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't seem, to me, to embrace Jesus' teachings. For example, every Christian republican I've ever met.

But does that mean they're not Christian, just because they don't measure up to MY yardstick? By no means. The only yardstick they have to measure up to, as you say, is Jesus.

And if they claim to be a Christian, I have to accept that they are. They might not be, but that's not for me to decide. Nor is it for you to decide. To tell someone they are not Christian if they claim they are is to usurp God's power, which is a mighty big sin.
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I didn't tell this mass murderer that he isn't a Christian. However, I don't believe he is a Christian because the fruit he produced directly contradicts the Bible and God's commandments.

That's discernment. It's a vital tool for Christians. That's how you avoid joining some cult just because someone claimed to be a Christian.

By the way, I'm sorry to see your faith is so tied into worldly politics.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#17
#17
TheGrungeDiva said:
But Muslims don't CLAIM to be Christians.

I hear you, sometimes I meet someone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't seem, to me, to embrace Jesus' teachings. For example, every Christian republican I've ever met.
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I'm beginning to see a trend.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#18
#18
rainacorn said:
I didn't tell this mass murderer that he isn't a Christian. However, I don't believe he is a Christian because the fruit he produced directly contradicts the Bible and God's commandments.
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You didn't tell him to his face you doubted his Christianity. Instead, you say it in a forum for thousands to read.

So, you're saying something is only a sin if it hurts someone else's feelings? That judging someone is not a sin, only telling them about your judgment is a sin? That God doesn't care what we think or say, as long as we do it behind the object's back?

By no means! God doesn't care if you don't say it to his face, or even if you don't say it out loud. God knows what is in your heart and in your mind. In fact, God ALONE knows that.

Which is exactly the reason why no one can judge another person's faith except for God.

That's discernment. It's a vital tool for Christians. That's how you avoid joining some cult just because someone claimed to be a Christian.
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Actually, I totally agree with this. You're referring to the Scripture quote, "By his fruits you will know him." However, that discernment is to be used to decide not to join some cult or other organization. You don't get to tell someone he or she isn't Christian just because you think they're wrong. You can -- and should!!! -- say, "I will not participate in your particular brand of worship or community, because I do not believe it to be what Christ has called me to do." One should NOT say, "You are not Christian," unless the object has admitted to being non-Christian.

I don't know why this concept is so hard to grasp. God said He alone is judge. Whether you believe that is literal or not, how hard can it be?

By the way, I'm sorry to see your faith is so tied into worldly politics.
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It's actually the other way around. I have the faith first, and it is my faith that FORMS my political views. And I am not adamant about worldly politics just because, I am so because Jesus commanded it. Who am I to question a direct order from Jesus?
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#19
#19
TheGrungeDiva said:
. And I am not adamant about worldly politics just because, I am so because Jesus commanded it. Who am I to question a direct order from Jesus?
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John 18:36
Jesus said:
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
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rainacorn

Guest
#20
#20
TheGrungeDiva said:
You didn't tell him to his face you doubted his Christianity. Instead, you say it in a forum for thousands to read.
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Well this is where you brought it up.

So, you're saying something is only a sin if it hurts someone else's feelings? That judging someone is not a sin, only telling them about your judgment is a sin? That God doesn't care what we think or say, as long as we do it behind the object's back?
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Are you talking to me? I said nothing of the kind.

By no means! God doesn't care if you don't say it to his face, or even if you don't say it out loud. God knows what is in your heart and in your mind. In fact, God ALONE knows that.

Which is exactly the reason why no one can judge another person's faith except for God.
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*sigh*

Maybe if I type slower?

Look, you're the one that keeps saying that I am telling someone they don't have faith. I never told this guy he doesn't have faith. We're discussing him as a subject. I said he's producing bad fruit. You seem to agree with that, so why are you trying to argue with me?

Actually, I totally agree with this. You're referring to the Scripture quote, "By his fruits you will know him."
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Uh huh.

You don't get to tell someone he or she isn't Christian just because you think they're wrong. You can -- and should!!! -- say, "I will not participate in your particular brand of worship or community, because I do not believe it to be what Christ has called me to do." One should NOT say, "You are not Christian," unless the object has admitted to being non-Christian.
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Again, I didn't tell anyone they aren't a Christian. I am making the rather obvious point that not everyone who professes to belong to a certain faith is necessarily a good follower of that faith. Being a 'good follower' would mean producing the fruits of the spirit and not acts of the flesh. I'm not judging the man's heart, I am judging his actions...his fruits. That is not against the law, God's or man's.

I don't know why this concept is so hard to grasp. God said He alone is judge. Whether you believe that is literal or not, how hard can it be?
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I don't know why the concept of FRUIT = ACTIONS is so hard to grasp. You can keep saying I am judging the man's soul, but that will not make it so.

It's actually the other way around. I have the faith first, and it is my faith that FORMS my political views. And I am not adamant about worldly politics just because, I am so because Jesus commanded it. Who am I to question a direct order from Jesus?
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Jesus commanded we be adamant about worldly politics? Verse, please.
 
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