The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
all for whom He died, substituted for, will be brought to God in a conversion experience, if you dont believe it, then that's unbelief 1 Pet 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Him being put to death in the flesh, for the unjust, that effects their conversion to God !
Made us dead to the Law ! 3
Rom 7:4
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Now by the Body of Christ, that is to say , by His Death, we were made Dead to the Laws condemning power, which also means that, although we still sin daily in regards to God's Holy Moral Law, either by tongue, our thoughts or manifested actions out of the heart Matt 15:19 ,
Because by Christ's Death making us dead to the Law, none of those sins can be charged to us to condemn us before God,
Pauls words in Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Well that charge does include any charge or transgression against God's Law !
For instance, suppose one for whom Christ died/or a brother in Christ is guilty of what Jesus calls Adultery here Matt 5:28 and that word looking blepon means to gaze at, and its in the present tense, a continual state of gazing, lusting after her, at that time they are committing Adultery in their heart, a violation of the seventh commandment of the Moral Law of God See Ex 20:14, and before the eyes of a Holy God, this is worthy of death, even eternal death, the wrath of God Eph 5:6,
Yet this Transgression [see James 2:10-11] will not be and cannot be layed to their charge, God does not charge them with it because of what's stated in Rom 7:4 being dead to the Law by the Body of Christ ! 34
Rom 7:4
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Now by the Body of Christ, that is to say , by His Death, we were made Dead to the Laws condemning power, which also means that, although we still sin daily in regards to God's Holy Moral Law, either by tongue, our thoughts or manifested actions out of the heart Matt 15:19 ,
Because by Christ's Death making us dead to the Law, none of those sins can be charged to us to condemn us before God,
Pauls words in Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Well that charge does include any charge or transgression against God's Law !
For instance, suppose one for whom Christ died/or a brother in Christ is guilty of what Jesus calls Adultery here Matt 5:28 and that word looking blepon means to gaze at, and its in the present tense, a continual state of gazing, lusting after her, at that time they are committing Adultery in their heart, a violation of the seventh commandment of the Moral Law of God See Ex 20:14, and before the eyes of a Holy God, this is worthy of death, even eternal death, the wrath of God Eph 5:6,
Yet this Transgression [see James 2:10-11] will not be and cannot be layed to their charge, God does not charge them with it because of what's stated in Rom 7:4 being dead to the Law by the Body of Christ ! 34
Is it your claim that those who have a good conscience ... and who have a good conversation [manner of life; lifestyle] in Christ ... and who suffer for well doing as shown in 1 Peter 3:16-17 are in need of "conversion to God !" as you keep insisting is the meaning of 1 Peter 3:18???
1 Peter 3:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit
Also, 1 Peter 3:18 refers to Christ being quickened by the Spirit which means He was resurrected. It is through the death, and the resurrection, and the ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ that the born again one is brought to God.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
... that is not the meaning of Rom 7:4, brightfame52.Until a person is born again, he or she is "married to the law". Once a person is born again, he or she becomes dead to the law ... and he or she is married to another, even to Him Who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
... and note the end of the verse, brightfame52 ... that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
so, under your erroneous dogma, a born again believe can "gaze at, and its in the present tense, a continual state of gazing, lusting after her" ... and that is bringing forth fruit unto God as Rom 7:4 indicates the born again one should be doing???brightfame52 said:
get out of here with your erroneous those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners dogma.
Ephesians 5:6-7 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
The born again believer is not to partake ... not because he or she is under the law, but because he or she is filled with the Holy Spirit at the time he or she is born again and is now to walk according to the Spirit ...
Galatians 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The born again one is not under the law if/when he or she is led of the Spirit ... because the Spirit will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. When the born again one is walking in the Spirit, the flesh cannot do the things that [it] would. The flesh is crucified ... it is dead:
Romans 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
so, no, it is not okay for the born again one to continue to "gaze at, and its in the present tense, a continual state of gazing, lusting after her" because under your erroneous dogma "this Transgression ... will not be and cannot be layed to their charge".
The born again one is to reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace – Rom 6:11-14.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
If you reject the Truth that Christs by His death, effected conversion to God for everyone He died as Per 1 Pet 3:18 you reject the Gospel, you have no faith in Christ on what He has done. Thats unbelief
Post 1664 You reject the Gospel Truths set forth, thats unbelief. All for whom Christ died, His death alone made them dead to the Law, it can never condemn them. Rom 7:4
Until a person is born again, he or she is "married to the law". Once a person is born again, he or she becomes dead to the law ... and he or she is married to another, even to Him Who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
... and note the end of the verse, brightfame52 ... that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
so, under your erroneous dogma, a born again believe can "gaze at, and its in the present tense, a continual state of gazing, lusting after her" ... and that is bringing forth fruit unto God as Rom 7:4 indicates the born again one should be doing???
get out of here with your erroneous those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners dogma.
Ephesians 5:6-7 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
The born again believer is not to partake ... not because he or she is under the law, but because he or she is filled with the Holy Spirit at the time he or she is born again and is now to walk according to the Spirit ...
Galatians 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The born again one is not under the law if/when he or she is led of the Spirit ... because the Spirit will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. When the born again one is walking in the Spirit, the flesh cannot do the things that [it] would. The flesh is crucified ... it is dead:
Romans 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
so, no, it is not okay for the born again one to continue to "gaze at, and its in the present tense, a continual state of gazing, lusting after her" because under your erroneous dogma "this Transgression ... will not be and cannot be layed to their charge".
The born again one is to reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace – Rom 6:11-14.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
How did those believers become dead to the Law according to Rom 7:4 and what was the purpose ?
renewed
You miss the point and purposely misrepresent what I stated. Those for whom Christ died are sinners, before and after conversion, and sin can and does have its consequences in a believers life, however, sin can never condemn them, be legally laid to their charge as to condemn them . Sure God will correct, chasten His erring children, but its out of Love and to promote growth in sanctification, but sin can never condemn them, because Christ has already taken upon Himself, all the legal condemnation and death their sins deserve, and God is satisfied with that.
You miss the point and purposely misrepresent what I stated. Those for whom Christ died are sinners, before and after conversion, and sin can and does have its consequences in a believers life, however, sin can never condemn them, be legally laid to their charge as to condemn them . Sure God will correct, chasten His erring children, but its out of Love and to promote growth in sanctification, but sin can never condemn them, because Christ has already taken upon Himself, all the legal condemnation and death their sins deserve, and God is satisfied with that.
1 Peter 3:18 does not state what you claim. 1 Peter 3:18 refers to those who have a good conscience ... and who have a good conversation [manner of life; lifestyle] in Christ ... and who suffer for well doing as shown in 1 Peter 3:16-17.
You can deny the truth of Scripture all you want, but your denial does not change the fact that those who have a good conscience ... and who have a good conversation [manner of life; lifestyle] in Christ ... and who suffer for well doing are already born again. Those who are born again have no need for "effected conversion to God" "as per 1 Pet 3:18" ... they were already converted when they were born again.
that I reject the erroneous gospel of brightfame52 does not mean I reject the gospel of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.brightfame53 said:
Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
.
... there are no "Gospel Truths set forth" in Post 1664. The only "truths" set forth in Post 1664 are the verses of Scripture quoted ...... all the rest of Post 1664 is the ramblings of your erroneous dogma.
I already explained Romans 7:4 to you ... you reject the truth of Scripture ...brightfame52 said:
.
no, brightfame52, I did not "miss the point" ... nor did I "purposely misrepresent what [you] stated".
your teaching that those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners is error and you refuse to acknowledge your error.
rather than teach that a person can "continue being ungodly sinners" (which is not true concerning the unbeliever or the believer), why do you not teach that God provides all that is needed for the unbeliever to be born again and that, once born again, the believer has all that he or she needs in order to overcome and be victorious over sin? ... that God has provided the release from the bondage of sin ... that the believer has the victory over sin?brightfame52 said:
Romans 6:11-14 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you ...
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Galatians 5:16 I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
If you reject the Truth that Christs death effects conversion for all whom He died, that it brings them to God1 Pet 3:18 then thats unbelief, no faith in Christ at all.
Everyone Christ died for, He died as their Surety, and when He died for them, it made them dead to the law, the Law cannot condemn them nor curse them Gal 3:13 and if you deny that, you still in unbelief friend.
... all the rest of Post 1664 is the ramblings of your erroneous dogma.
I already explained Romans 7:4 to you ... you reject the truth of Scripture ...
.
Those for whom Christ died, sin will not be imputed to them, charged to them legally for their condemnation. That's an accomplishment of the death of Christ which you dont believe, hence unbelief.
Well, you've finally caught on to your error ... however, in re-wording your claim you now have other problems:
First problem ... the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world ... all descendants of Adam.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Second problem, you claim "that it ["Christs death"] brings them to God1 Pet 3:18:
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit
It is not "Christs death" that "brings them to God". In ignoring the words but quickened by the Spirit, you claim that it is the death of Christ which brings the believer to God and that is error. The Lord Jesus Christ did not remain in the grave. The Lord Jesus Christ was resurrected [quickened by the Spirit]. Not only was He resurrected, but He also ascended into heaven as shown in 1 Peter 3:22:
1 Peter 3:22 Who [the Lord Jesus Christ] is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
The reason the Lord Jesus Christ can bring us to God is because He is seated on the right hand of God.
And when the Lord Jesus Christ bring[ s ] us to God, we do not stand before God on our own. We stand before God in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are clothed in His righteousness ... it is in the Lord Jesus Christ that we have any standing whatsoever before the throne of God.
Why don't you just lay aside your erroneous dogma and believe Scripture ... just as the Author of Scripture wrote it??? Quit adjusting Scripture ... quit adding to it ... manipulating Scripture to align with your dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
.
The Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world ... all descendants of Adam:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I believe what is written in Scripture concerning the "accomplishment of the death of Christ".brightfame52 said:
that I don't believe your erroneous dogma does not equal "unbelief" of Scripture ... it means "unbelief" of your erroneous dogma.
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.
The shed righteous blood is sufficient for all but efficacious only unto those who believe.
What you repeatedly say is a partial truth, and not what Scripture actually teaches.
If you reject the Truth that Christs death effects conversion for all whom He died, that it brings them to God1 Pet 3:18 then thats unbelief, no faith in Christ at all.
Those for whom Christ died, sin will not be imputed to them, charged to them legally for their condemnation.