Liberal Christian

[jimmydiggs]

Hey, he made the promises. If you don't think the office of the President comes with any power, accountability or responsibility then why did you vote for someone who made such promises?

 

[rainacorn]

Hey! I was one of those zombies!

Actually, I'd probably vote for him again over a lot of other people. But I'm not so blinded by butt crazy hatred for republicans that I refuse to acknowledge his shortcomings and failures.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Hey! I was one of those zombies!

Actually, I'd probably vote for him again over a lot of other people. But I'm not so blinded by butt crazy hatred for republicans that I refuse to acknowledge his shortcomings and failures.

Everyone knows Jesus died only for [insert prefered political affiliation].


We're still in the Garden of Gethsemane cutting off ears!

 

[Megatron]

I wouldnt say he is perfect but he is a lot better than most other planning to run against him this time...

 

[IQ]

Well. here I am sticking my neck out because - although I risk being labeled as theologically liberal - I qualify as as politically liberal.
First, let me define liberal in the sense I mean it
Conservative - Believe that the status-quo, society norms, and traditional government systems - in other words "the tried and true" are the best approach to current challenges.
Liberal - Believe that change is needed, that current society norms are not OK as they are, and traditional government systems need an overall - in other words a re-vamping is needed.
Now, I would be surprised that very many Christians fall in the conservative camp by this definition.
Let's bring this lens in focus.

Abortion -
The status-quo (whether we like it or not) is that abortion is both legal and increasingly acceptable in our society. Current government systems both encourage and support this fact, and this trend.
The conservative position - Please correct me if I am mistaken - Is that the best way to turn this around and bring a stop to this practice is to make abortion illegal
The Christian liberal position - Rather than passing laws and funding enforcement of those laws, the resources would be more effectively used to increase educational and economic opportunities for women, supporting families and creating laws that protect the family - through health insurance, regulation of employee rights to family leave etc...
Studies have been done that indicate the most common causes for abortion.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf
The idea is that by reducing the causes of abortion the symptoms will be reduced as well.

Gay marriage - This matter can not (unfortunately) be left to the individual states. Every state, under law, must recognize a marriage performed in every other state. I think the best solution is Domestic Partnerships that would allow a gay couple to enjoy the same legal rights and privileges as a married couple. I do NOT believe this is a MORAL union. Only that our government has no right to enforce moral believes on another person - provided that person is not bringing direct harm, or serious threat of harm, to the person or property of another. The consequences of giving our government THAT kind of authority boggle the mind and cause me to cringe.

Obama - He is our President. Like it or not, we are under a moral obligation - clearly spelled out in the Bible - to both pray for him and respect his authority.
Get over it - I had to swallow the same pill under Bush LOL
That being said -
How can you tell when a politician is lying?
Their lips are moving.
How do we know that ALL our political representatives are insane?
They actually WANTED the job.
Obama is a politician and, as politicians go, he's pretty good. Although he hasn't accomplished as much as he would have liked, he has accomplished a good deal, and God Bless him.

So there you go. Let the fun begin!

 

[rainacorn]

For conservatives, aborting a fetus is murder. As murder, it should be illegal. The right to abort is legalizing murder, basically, to a conservative. Hence the strong feelings.

The argument isn't really whether or not abortion should be legal, but whether or not it is murder. Some people equate abortion to having a growth removed. I somehow doubt those people have actually had abortions, though. I dunno, just seems callous. Thankfully I've never been in that situation, so my thoughts on it all are theoretical.

When it comes to gay marriage, I think a lot of Christians fear it is dangerous territory to say, as a society, that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. If America makes that statement then there is really no pretending anymore that this is a Christian nation. America is a whore, paying lip service with 'One Nation Under God' and 'In God We Trust.' I think if we do make gay marriage legal, we may as well take that nonsense off the money and out of the pledge because we're really just tempting fate. PRETENDING to be a Godly nation has never worked out for anyone.

Better to be cold than lukewarm.

 

[IQ]

For conservatives, aborting a fetus is murder. As murder, it should be illegal. The right to abort is legalizing murder, basically, to a conservative. Hence the strong feelings.

The argument isn't really whether or not abortion should be legal, but whether or not it is murder. Some people equate abortion to having a growth removed. I somehow doubt those people have actually had abortions, though. I dunno, just seems callous. Thankfully I've never been in that situation, so my thoughts on it all are theoretical.

OK let's talk about homicide for a minute.
U.S. Experiment in Private Healthcare | Wanderings
The studies quoted indicate that the absence of Public Health Insurance is a major contributing factor for death in America.
In addition:
"Canada used to have statistics that mirrored those in the United States. In 1970, U.S. and Canadian mortality rates calculated along income lines were virtually identical.
But 1970 also marked the introduction of Medicare in Canada -- universal, single-payer coverage.
Infant mortality rates, which reflect the health of the mother and her access to prenatal and postnatal care, are considered one of the most reliable measures of the general health of a population.
Canada's infant mortality rate of 4.7 per thousand 23rd out of 225 countries
United States, infant mortality rates are 7.1 per 1,000, the highest in the industrialized world -- much higher than some of the poorer states in India,
Inner-city poor in the United States, more than 8 percent of mothers receive no prenatal care at all before giving birth"

Is it somehow more OK to kill by neglect? I believe the term for this is Negligent Homicide.

When it comes to gay marriage, I think a lot of Christians fear it is dangerous territory to say, as a society, that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. If America makes that statement then there is really no pretending anymore that this is a Christian nation. America is a whore, paying lip service with 'One Nation Under God' and 'In God We Trust.' I think if we do make gay marriage legal, we may as well take that nonsense off the money and out of the pledge because we're really just tempting fate. PRETENDING to be a Godly nation has never worked out for anyone.

Better to be cold than lukewarm.

To reiterate - I do NOT support gay marriage. What I am allowing is Domestic Partnership - a legal rather than a moral union. Nor am I saying there is nothing wrong with gay unions. What I am saying is, it is not the place of Government to disallow a union, provided both parties are consenting adults.

And don't get me started on the UN-Christian practices and policies of our nation!

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Well. here I am sticking my neck out ....So there you go. Let the fun begin!

EXCELLENT POST! I didn't want to quote the whole thing, but I do appreciate everything you said.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Some people equate abortion to having a growth removed.

I may be wrong, but to my knowledge, no Christian would feel this way. I think all Christians agree that abortion is wrong. You are correct, though, that the issue is whether or not it is murder. If it is wrong, but not murder, it should not be illegal, because then the nation is legalizing morality.

When it comes to gay marriage, I think a lot of Christians fear it is dangerous territory to say, as a society, that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.

How is saying "there is nothing wrong with homosexuality" more dangerous than saying "there is nothing wrong with a rich corporation taking advantage of the poor and disenfranchised"?

Here's another morsel for thought:
If gay marriage becomes legal, who is at risk? Well, if we assume homosexuality is a sin, the only risk is to the gays themselves. How does them getting married hurt you or me? It doesn't.
On the other hand, if we allow companies to run roughshod over individual rights, in the name of "economic growth," who is at risk? Answer: EVERYONE! Not only have we ignored the plight of the poor, which is mentioned in the Bible, both Old and New testaments, WAY more than homosexuality, but, those of us who are economically savvy know that ultimately, such a model hurts everyone, even the rich. Trickle Down Economics has never worked. Obama is a Keynesian, and his economic policies (the ones he WANTS to enact, not the ones he's being forced to enact because the republicans won't agree to anything else) are ultimately best for everyone, rich and poor, Christian and non, black, white, yellow, green, and pink-and-purple-polka-dot.
Both as a Christian and as an educated individual, I am called to denounce the actions of the politically right.

If America makes that statement then there is really no pretending anymore that this is a Christian nation.

America was founded on the principles of religious FREEDOM, and yes, that includes freedom FROM religion. Anyone who says America is, or ever was, a Christian nation, is just plain wrong.

Yes, there used to be a stronger majority of Christians in the population than there are now. But our constitution is very clear that Christian ideals should NEVER be used to dictate law.

America is a whore, paying lip service with 'One Nation Under God' and 'In God We Trust.' I think if we do make gay marriage legal, we may as well take that nonsense off the money and out of the pledge

Except for the "whore" statement, I totally agree with this. We never should have added the "one nation under God" phrase into the pledge. ("Under God" was added in the 50s, by the way ... we should go back to the original pledge that did not mention God.
And as far as God's name being on our currency, I find it distasteful at best. I don't much appreciate my God's name being slung through the muck and mockery that is this nation's economy.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

And don't get me started on the UN-Christian practices and policies of our nation!

Once again, the whole post was brilliant. WRT the above, however, why should we not get you started on the UN-Christian practices and policies of our nation? Have prophets not been called throughout the ages to do exactly that?

IOW, preach it, sister!

 

[jimmydiggs]

Yes, there used to be a stronger majority of Christians in the population than there are now. But our constitution is very clear that Christian ideals should NEVER be used to dictate law.

I'm curious. How do you determine whether an act/action is moral/immoral?

What is the grounding of morality? (or is there any?)

 

[rodogg]

I'm curious. How do you determine whether an act/action is moral/immoral?

What is the grounding of morality? (or is there any?)

Nice. Niceeee.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Well. here I am sticking my neck out because - although I risk being labeled as theologically liberal - I qualify as as politically liberal.
First, let me define liberal in the sense I mean it
Conservative - Believe that the status-quo, society norms, and traditional government systems - in other words "the tried and true" are the best approach to current challenges.
Liberal - Believe that change is needed, that current society norms are not OK as they are, and traditional government systems need an overall - in other words a re-vamping is needed.
Now, I would be surprised that very many Christians fall in the conservative camp by this definition.
Let's bring this lens in focus.

It should be noted, that the terms have different meanings in American politics.

 

[IQ]

It should be noted, that the terms have different meanings in American politics.

No - I am using the American sociological definition.

 

[Sooner28]

Well. here I am sticking my neck out because - although I risk being labeled as theologically liberal - I qualify as as politically liberal.
First, let me define liberal in the sense I mean it
Conservative - Believe that the status-quo, society norms, and traditional government systems - in other words "the tried and true" are the best approach to current challenges.
Liberal - Believe that change is needed, that current society norms are not OK as they are, and traditional government systems need an overall - in other words a re-vamping is needed.
Now, I would be surprised that very many Christians fall in the conservative camp by this definition.
Let's bring this lens in focus.

Abortion -
The status-quo (whether we like it or not) is that abortion is both legal and increasingly acceptable in our society. Current government systems both encourage and support this fact, and this trend.
The conservative position - Please correct me if I am mistaken - Is that the best way to turn this around and bring a stop to this practice is to make abortion illegal
The Christian liberal position - Rather than passing laws and funding enforcement of those laws, the resources would be more effectively used to increase educational and economic opportunities for women, supporting families and creating laws that protect the family - through health insurance, regulation of employee rights to family leave etc...
Studies have been done that indicate the most common causes for abortion.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf
The idea is that by reducing the causes of abortion the symptoms will be reduced as well.

Gay marriage - This matter can not (unfortunately) be left to the individual states. Every state, under law, must recognize a marriage performed in every other state. I think the best solution is Domestic Partnerships that would allow a gay couple to enjoy the same legal rights and privileges as a married couple. I do NOT believe this is a MORAL union. Only that our government has no right to enforce moral believes on another person - provided that person is not bringing direct harm, or serious threat of harm, to the person or property of another. The consequences of giving our government THAT kind of authority boggle the mind and cause me to cringe.

Obama - He is our President. Like it or not, we are under a moral obligation - clearly spelled out in the Bible - to both pray for him and respect his authority.
Get over it - I had to swallow the same pill under Bush LOL
That being said -
How can you tell when a politician is lying?
Their lips are moving.
How do we know that ALL our political representatives are insane?
They actually WANTED the job.
Obama is a politician and, as politicians go, he's pretty good. Although he hasn't accomplished as much as he would have liked, he has accomplished a good deal, and God Bless him.

So there you go. Let the fun begin!

I appreciate someone actually using their mind . I read so many responses and people just do not think through their positions at all. I'm always happy to hear from people like you and grunge.

 

[jimmydiggs]

No - I am using the American sociological definition.

So then you would switch the terms below?

The liberal philosophical system

• Epistemology: Reason. Knowledge comes from human beings. "Inalienable rights" are innate in human beings, as a result of their being reasoning beings.
• Metaphysics: Subjective reality. Liberals don't believe that what is true for one person is true for another person.
• Ethics: Do things for the good of society as a whole. Liberals place more importance on society as a whole instead of individuals. Helping the less fortunate is also important. Liberals deal with people in groups rather than as individuals.
• Economics: Socialism. Liberals believe that an uneven distribution of wealth is not ethical, so another mechanism -- in this case, the state -- must allocate that wealth.
• Agency: Determinism. Liberals believe that things happen outside the control of human beings and that they have no control of what occurs in the world.

The conservative philosophical system

• Epistemology: God. "Inalienable rights" come from God, who created human beings and gave them the capacity to reason.
• Metaphysics: Objective reality. There is a knowable truth that is universal for all people (this truth, incidentally, is usually the same as the politician's truth).
• Ethics: Self-interest. A thing should be done by an individual for the good of that individual. Things done for the good of the individual will necessarily be done for the good of society (Adam Smith's "invisible hand").
• Economics: Capitalism. Conservatives believe that capitalism is the most just of all the economic systems. A person should work for what he earns and nothing less or more.
• Agency: Free will. There exists nothing outside the control of a human being's free will. There are no excuses because everything is the result of a person's good or bad choices.

SEDHE: Liberal vs. conservative: What does it mean? <--- click

 

[IQ]

So then you would switch the terms below?

[/list]

Conservative | Define Conservative at Dictionary.com
Liberal | Define Liberal at Dictionary.com

Keep it simple.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Conservative | Define Conservative at Dictionary.com
Liberal | Define Liberal at Dictionary.com

Keep it simple.

If only politics was simple.

 

[IQ]

Who is SEDHE ? What are their sources (other than their own opinion) for this definition. I could cite many resources defining the distinction as I do.
jimmydiggs

 

[jimmydiggs]

Who is SEDHE ? What are their sources (other than their own opinion) for this definition. I could cite many resources defining the distinction as I do.
jimmydiggs

I quoted it for the summary, not neccesarily as an authority. If, however, you want to learn more about conservative philosophy, John Locke would be a good start.