Is it a moral or legal obligation to pay a debt to a bank?
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You have an issue with everyone from what I can tell. Yourself excepted.
Your comment is just picking at me. Perhaps you should follow your own advice...
I did a quick search. Deuteronomy 14:27-29 speaks to the Levitical tithe and tithe for the poor. I read also about the harvest tithe but saw no reference as of yet. This was to be used for the cost of travel.
There was also a small temple tax, as well as the practice of leaving fallen grain and not harvesting the outermost part of fields to be gleaned.
Will have more later if I can.
I actually added constructive critisim: "No reason to pick like that, add to the discussion with ideas."
Proverbs 27:5-6, "Open rebuke is better than concealed love. Faithful are the wounds from a friend, but the kisses from an enemy are deceitful."
no, scripture is expected.... but it's usually relevant scripture. Posting "rules" for borrowing that were instituted for a people a few thousand years ago is not applicable to what happens today.
If you were going to open a "lending institution" and wanted to follow OT Biblical principles, then, by all means, quote your scriptures.
They just do not apply to the OP's question..... IMHO, of course.
I actually agreed with the person you falsely accused me of "just picking" at.
read all here ------
https://get.tithe.ly/blog/bible-verses-about-debt
Things to ponder about owing anyone
1. Debt is a form of slavery
Debt compromises income stream.
2 Kings 4:7
"She came and told the man of God, and he said, 'Go, sell the oil and pay your debts, and you and your sons can live on the rest.’"
2. Debt prevents rest
When we are in debt, we are forced to work extra hours, take a second job or side hustle, and spend more emotional energy on getting out of debt.
Ecclesiastes 5:4
"When you vow a vow to God, do not delay paying it, for he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you vow.
3. Debt is a procrastinator's way of spending money
it is a mindset that will ultimately bring destruction.
Luke 16:10
“One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much
4. Debt is a metaphor for sin
It is wrong to use your cloak as a pledge because it was your basic means of surviving in the world, and it compromised your human dignity. Yet today, people are willing to take out second mortgages, which is essentially a compromise of their right to shelter, for a new kitchen counter.
Amos 2:8
"They lay themselves down beside every altar on garments taken in pledge, and in the house of their God they drink the wine of those who have been fined."
5. Debt compromises your ability to provide
Family. Church. Rent.
Every cent you owe in debt, plus interest, decreases your ability to secure these provisions.
1 Timothy 5:8
"But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”
6. Debt compromises your ability to be generous
But after we have spent our money on the essentials, provided for those under our care, paid our taxes, and saved for the future, how could we possibly be generous?
1 John 3:17
"But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?"
.
7 God forbids credit card companies in Israel
God does permit money lending.
But what we know today as the modern practices of credit card companies were ethically forbidden by God.
God gives explicit commands to people about the lending
This is why God warns borrowers from using their cloaks as collateral ini a loan.
This is also why God tells lenders that it is unethical to keep a borrower's cloak from them, even if they haven't paid off their debts.
Exodus 22:25-27
“If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a moneylender to him, and you shall not exact interest from him. If ever you take your neighbor's cloak in pledge, you shall return it to him before the sun goes down, for that is his only covering, and it is his cloak for his body; in what else shall he sleep? And if he cries to me, I will hear, for I am compassionate."
8. Debt conflicts with a hard working mindset
Debt is more than a number.
It is a way of thinking.
Proverbs 10:4
"A slack hand causes poverty, but the hand of the diligent makes rich."
Proverbs 13:11
"Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it."
9. Gratitude can keep us from debt
We often go into debt because of envy.
We want to keep up with the Joneses.
Luke 14:28
"For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?"
10. Faith can keep us from debt
God often provides for us the worldview in which debt is a poor choice.
Matthew 6:21
"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
Luke 12:15
"And he said to them, 'Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.’"
-------------------------------------------------------
https://www.openbible.info/topics/paying_debt
Scripture on Paying Debt
Romans 13:7-8 ESV
Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Psalm 37:21 ESV
The wicked borrows but does not pay back, but the righteous is generous and gives;
Proverbs 22:7 ESV /
The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.
Proverbs 3:27-28 ESV
Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, “Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it”—when you have it with you.
https://get.tithe.ly/blog/bible-verses-about-debt
Things to ponder about owing anyone
1. Debt is a form of slavery
Debt compromises income stream.
2 Kings 4:7
"She came and told the man of God, and he said, 'Go, sell the oil and pay your debts, and you and your sons can live on the rest.’"
2. Debt prevents rest
When we are in debt, we are forced to work extra hours, take a second job or side hustle, and spend more emotional energy on getting out of debt.
Ecclesiastes 5:4
"When you vow a vow to God, do not delay paying it, for he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you vow.
3. Debt is a procrastinator's way of spending money
it is a mindset that will ultimately bring destruction.
Luke 16:10
“One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much
4. Debt is a metaphor for sin
It is wrong to use your cloak as a pledge because it was your basic means of surviving in the world, and it compromised your human dignity. Yet today, people are willing to take out second mortgages, which is essentially a compromise of their right to shelter, for a new kitchen counter.
Amos 2:8
"They lay themselves down beside every altar on garments taken in pledge, and in the house of their God they drink the wine of those who have been fined."
5. Debt compromises your ability to provide
Family. Church. Rent.
Every cent you owe in debt, plus interest, decreases your ability to secure these provisions.
1 Timothy 5:8
"But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”
6. Debt compromises your ability to be generous
But after we have spent our money on the essentials, provided for those under our care, paid our taxes, and saved for the future, how could we possibly be generous?
1 John 3:17
"But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?"
.
7 God forbids credit card companies in Israel
God does permit money lending.
But what we know today as the modern practices of credit card companies were ethically forbidden by God.
God gives explicit commands to people about the lending
This is why God warns borrowers from using their cloaks as collateral ini a loan.
This is also why God tells lenders that it is unethical to keep a borrower's cloak from them, even if they haven't paid off their debts.
Exodus 22:25-27
“If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a moneylender to him, and you shall not exact interest from him. If ever you take your neighbor's cloak in pledge, you shall return it to him before the sun goes down, for that is his only covering, and it is his cloak for his body; in what else shall he sleep? And if he cries to me, I will hear, for I am compassionate."
8. Debt conflicts with a hard working mindset
Debt is more than a number.
It is a way of thinking.
Proverbs 10:4
"A slack hand causes poverty, but the hand of the diligent makes rich."
Proverbs 13:11
"Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it."
9. Gratitude can keep us from debt
We often go into debt because of envy.
We want to keep up with the Joneses.
Luke 14:28
"For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?"
10. Faith can keep us from debt
God often provides for us the worldview in which debt is a poor choice.
Matthew 6:21
"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
Luke 12:15
"And he said to them, 'Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.’"
-------------------------------------------------------
https://www.openbible.info/topics/paying_debt
Scripture on Paying Debt
Romans 13:7-8 ESV
Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Psalm 37:21 ESV
The wicked borrows but does not pay back, but the righteous is generous and gives;
Proverbs 22:7 ESV /
The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.
Proverbs 3:27-28 ESV
Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, “Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it”—when you have it with you.
OK
that passage included this.
Nehemiah 5:1-19,1 ................... “You are exacting interest, each one from his brother.........................”
it was on topic.
The law does give you exemptions from paying debts. If we have to follow the laws, so do the banks.
Jesus wouldn't say what does the law say; He'd say what does your heavenly Father expect of you. Using your logic, if you asked Jesus if you can get wasted every night in the privacy of your own home, He would say, "It's legal, sure why not." The heavenly Father's standards are different than man's.
Yahshua actually does mention the Law a lot
Matthew 23:23,23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. "
Mat 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might (Deuteronomy 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent/Spirit of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."
“iniquity” is word # G0458 - anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459, Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) 1) the condition of without law, 1a) because ignorant of it, 1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."
Mat 23:28, “So you too outwardly indeed appear righteous to men, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.”
and you cant say His words are done away
Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”
it not legalisim either, it's love
1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."
I remeber something with Him and the moneychangers too
Not really.... unless your banker is your spiritual brother.... but it's not worth arguing over.... let's just move on, brother...
It's entirely possible I misread the original question, but I thought it had to do with borrowing from a secular banking system, and what were our moral/legal obligations pertaining to debt we willingly incur...
In my opinion, we cannot apply any kind of Biblical morality to those transactions. It would be nice if everyone followed moral, Biblical principles, but that is a different world than the one we are living in.
We have a moral obligation to pay, because WE are supposed to live moral, Christ-like lives. And, of course we have the legal obligation as well....
Of course they do. If you lawfully file bankruptcy, the bank has to stop trying to collect on your bad debt. That's legal.
Is it moral? That is dependent on each individual situation.
Can you give an example where bankruptcy would be morally and ethically acceptable?
Article 1 section 8. of United States constitution. Same with all the other freedoms we enjoy.
So drop it, but then you go on to tell me you view? OK... that’s an odd personality there, we are supposed to be shoulder to shoulder...even. We are all here to discuss and learn posting Scripture and our views of them is the purpose
Just because someone is secular/atheist does not mean they are not subject to YHWH, they might not believe they are or might not care, but they still are, in the resurrection they will realize that real fast. And because they are atheist does not destroy the righteous standard of YHWH, right is still right, wrong is still wrong. If a man swindles an old lady out of her money is it then his to keep because he does not believe in any high power or moral standard? NO. He should be held accountable.
Also for us to be able to judge correctly, as the Creator wants us to, we have to first know and understand His ways and historical parallels, that way we can have a right reference point.
Regardless of the type of the loan, the amount of the loan or who you owe the money to, you have an obligation to let your yes be yes and your no be no.
Loans involving financial groups and consumers are regulated by the government. When you sign a loan agreement that agreement is bound be the laws of the land.
Part of any loan agreement has a tacit understanding of the legal recourse that is available to both sides in the discharge of the loan. One of the options for the consumer is bankruptcy, just as the bank has the option of foreclosure.
You as a consumer should know you legal options in this matter. I promise you the banks do.
In other words, if you choose to not pay the debt do it the legal way and not simply walk away and ignore the debt.