Man killed in Utah FBI raid allegedly posted death threats against Biden

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ZNP

ZNP

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#221
Sep 14, 2020
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#221
Smoke said:
However, even if he was unarmed, many of you are for qualified immunity... Qualified immunity extends to FBI agents. Yall love the get-out-of-jail free card for police officers, why not FBI agents? :cautious:
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Update

I have had some back and forth on this with Smoke.

We have had 15 people post on this thread and the thread has had 1,320 views. Of these 15 people not one has taken a position supporting qualified immunity.

Smoke did provide evidence of one person who had this view, but that person is banned so obviously not on this thread.

Smoke mentioned another person, I did a search on that name and no posts came up, I tried a different iteration and again, no posts. So at this point we have not found any evidence that there is anyone on this forum that supports a get out of jail free card for the FBI or the police.
 
Smoke

Smoke

Senior Member
#222
Oct 27, 2016
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#222
ZNP said:
Update

I have had some back and forth on this with Smoke.

We have had 15 people post on this thread and the thread has had 1,320 views. Of these 15 people not one has taken a position supporting qualified immunity.

Smoke did provide evidence of one person who had this view, but that person is banned so obviously not on this thread.

Smoke mentioned another person, I did a search on that name and no posts came up, I tried a different iteration and again, no posts. So at this point we have not found any evidence that there is anyone on this forum that supports a get out of jail free card for the FBI or the police.
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Additional Update

That's fantastic news! Hopefully the other threads of multiple people supporting qualified immunity now converted to abolishing it. Hopefully EndQualifiedImmunity is welcomed back for bringing to light the misconduct of government officials!

Qualified Immunity Stats

Now then, we should focus on educating people of how bad qualified immunity is so that if and when the authorities screw up, they are held accountable.

Once VPN does a FOIA request, he will provide evidence that the man was unarmed. It is probably prudent we not cast judgment until we have more evidence. Thankfully, "because VPN is obviously passionate" about this incident, he is willing to do research instead of just make accusations without any evidence to substantiate it.

Thank you VPN! :)
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#223
#223
Smoke said:
The people who reported the poster named EndQualifiedImmunity for posting videos of cops abusing their authority. I even saw people point out his username as some sort of proof he is anti-cop. You can dig those threads up and get more than 3 different people.
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I am highly against any govco official abusing their authority.

Smoke said:
I mean, do you think the previously document incident of him being armed towards the Google fiber guys is fake news? Do you think it's true but just a coincidence and that this time around he wasn't armed? Other than a lack of evidence (not being given visual proof), why do you think he wasn't armed? Also, I did a simple google search and found MULTIPLE sources "plastering" that he did in fact have a gun...
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If ya kick in my door at dawn, you will be met with a gun, it seems that would be the case for anyone. That just seems a stratagy for getting met with a gun. Maybe they could habe just arrested him any of the times that he would usually be up and around. He wasnt a flight risk. Maybe jusy knock on his door or pull him over when he headed out to the shops or something. Door kicking is just bad policy.
Smoke said:
I think we mutually agree that cops and FBI agents abuse their authority and/or act incompetent from time to time. I am willing to condemn these FBI agents if they truly busted in his house and shot him unarmed... However, I need something more than the fact the media didn't "plaster" he was armed (which they actually have) and that they didn't release a picture of the weapon he was reportedly armed with
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Change from "time to time" to most of the time and you would be more accurate. And you can believe if he was armed the news would blast that from the roof tops.

But like i said door kicking is just bad policy, unless there are others at risk and fast action is required. Or unless you just want excuse to kill someone, because likely you kick anyones door open and they are prepared to defend their home, self, family, etc.
There are far easier and better and safer ways to arrest someone. One is to wait until he heads out for some reason and then roll up on him, with lights and sirens.

No im convienced rhis was a murder.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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#224
Smoke said:
Agreed, the neighbor didn't report the man was armed, it was the agents. Nevertheless, there are 3x sources of it being "plastered" that the man was armed. So you can take this off the list of reasons why you think the guy was unarmed (because the media supposedly didn't "plaster" it in which case they really did).

Perhaps this is an unfair assessment of the scenario, but the agents' claim that he was not following orders/commands appears to be substantiated. This doesn't prove he really was armed, just gives something towards their credibility.

Now what proof do you have to show that he was unarmed again?
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Show me the gun

The gun is critical evidence supporting the claim that it was self defense. Has the gun been entered into evidence?

It is pointless to hear that "witnesses" saw a gun, he was shot and killed alone in the house in a matter of seconds. Where is the gun?
 
ZNP

ZNP

Well-known member
#225
Sep 14, 2020
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#225
Smoke said:
Additional Update

That's fantastic news! Hopefully the other threads of multiple people supporting qualified immunity now converted to abolishing it. Hopefully EndQualifiedImmunity is welcomed back for bringing to light the misconduct of government officials!

Qualified Immunity Stats

Now then, we should focus on educating people of how bad qualified immunity is so that if and when the authorities screw up, they are held accountable.

Once VPN does a FOIA request, he will provide evidence that the man was unarmed. It is probably prudent we not cast judgment until we have more evidence. Thankfully, "because VPN is obviously passionate" about this incident, he is willing to do research instead of just make accusations without any evidence to substantiate it.

Thank you VPN! :)
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Are you referring to ZNP? I am not doing a FOIA request over this. It is absurd. If there was a gun it would be in evidence. If there is no gun in evidence there is no gun.
 
Smoke

Smoke

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Oct 27, 2016
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#226
Locoponydirtman said:
I am highly against any govco official abusing their authority.


If ya kick in my door at dawn, you will be met with a gun, it seems that would be the case for anyone. That just seems a stratagy for getting met with a gun. Maybe they could habe just arrested him any of the times that he would usually be up and around. He wasnt a flight risk. Maybe jusy knock on his door or pull him over when he headed out to the shops or something. Door kicking is just bad policy.

Change from "time to time" to most of the time and you would be more accurate. And you can believe if he was armed the news would blast that from the roof tops.

But like i said door kicking is just bad policy, unless there are others at risk and fast action is required. Or unless you just want excuse to kill someone, because likely you kick anyones door open and they are prepared to defend their home, self, family, etc.
There are far easier and better and safer ways to arrest someone. One is to wait until he heads out for some reason and then roll up on him, with lights and sirens.

No im convienced rhis was a murder.
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We actually agree on a lot.

However, I can't call this a murder (yet). Police are not only allowed to do what they do, they are trained to do what they do. We can agree bashing a door down in the early morning is bad policy, but it's what has been afforded to them. I am personally against no-knock warrants... it gets people killed... I think we agree on this. We should change that though. Because it's allowed legally, agents can rush a home with a warrant only to be met with a gun on the other end, and shoot the person. Under the legal definition, that wouldn't be murder.

We need to retrain government officials to avoid this. However, any time someone posts a video of a government official going overboard, they are vilified for being "anti-cop". We need to get away from that type of immature mentality. We should advocate for people going after BAD cops and/or BAD training/strategy. I think that's the point VPN misses and instead wants proof of at least 3 people who are for qualified immunity all the while refusing to offer any evidence that the man was indeed unarmed.
 
Smoke

Smoke

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Oct 27, 2016
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#227
ZNP said:
Show me the gun

The gun is critical evidence supporting the claim that it was self defense. Has the gun been entered into evidence?

It is pointless to hear that "witnesses" saw a gun, he was shot and killed alone in the house in a matter of seconds. Where is the gun?
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"I figured since you were obviously passionate" about this incident, you would do the FOIA request and show us the evidence he was unarmed. Unfortunately, I don't hold the evidence... If I do, I would show you what was brought in.

If the gun exists, I would imagine it would be in a place I couldn't readily provide that for you. Have you initiated the FOIA request of any/all body cam footage though?
 
Smoke

Smoke

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#228
ZNP said:
Are you referring to ZNP? I am not doing a FOIA request over this. It is absurd. If there was a gun it would be in evidence. If there is no gun in evidence there is no gun.
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Have you verified if the gun is in evidence?

If you don't know if there is one there or not, then you can't possibly know it doesn't exist... :ROFL:

Also, I am using your own words... you're obviously passionate about this... I figured you'd do a FOIA request to confirm what is essentially already "facts" in your own head that the man was unarmed.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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#229
Sep 14, 2020
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#229
Smoke said:
"I figured since you were obviously passionate" about this incident, you would do the FOIA request and show us the evidence he was unarmed. Unfortunately, I don't hold the evidence... If I do, I would show you what was brought in.

If the gun exists, I would imagine it would be in a place I couldn't readily provide that for you. Have you initiated the FOIA request of any/all body cam footage though?
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Why is it that when a felon is shot and killed by the police they show us the body cam footage, they hold up the gun in a press conference, and there is transparency.

This man, who hasn't committed any crime and his so called "threat" was obviously not literal or serious all we get is extremely vague accusations without any transparency and any evidence?
 
ZNP

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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#230
Smoke said:
Have you verified if the gun is in evidence?

If you don't know if there is one there or not, then you can't possibly know it doesn't exist... :ROFL:

Also, I am using your own words... you're obviously passionate about this... I figured you'd do a FOIA request to confirm what is essentially already "facts" in your own head that the man was unarmed.
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I have read three or four news reports and watched a few videos including the one from ABC that you shared. Not once have they shown the Feds doing a press briefing holding up evidence that he was armed. That alone is to be condemned.
 
Smoke

Smoke

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ZNP said:
I have read three or four news reports and watched a few videos including the one from ABC that you shared. Not once have they shown the Feds doing a press briefing holding up evidence that he was armed. That alone is to be condemned.
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Okay, so you don't know... is that what you're saying without saying it? I didn't ask if you read reports from the crooked media if they have the gun in evidence or not... I didn't ask if it's condemnable to not have a press conference to alleviate fear and doubt over the incident. I asked if you know if the gun is in evidence.

I'll repeat, two questions:

1.) Do you know if the gun is in evidence?
2.) What evidence do you have to support the man was unarmed?
 
Smoke

Smoke

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Oct 27, 2016
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#232
ZNP/VPN: The evidence I have that the man was unarmed is that the gun isn't in evidence and it wasn't shown in any pictures or news conference.

Rational Person: So you know for a fact that they don't have the gun in evidence?

ZPN/VPN: No I don't know for sure, but because I haven't seen it, it can't possibly be true. Also, if it was true he was armed, why aren't they plastering it all over news reports?

Rational Person: Here, take a look at these three links which clearly say the man was armed in the titles.

ZPN/VPN: Oh um, well, I still haven't seen the gun and no press release was given to show the man was armed. So there's that.

Rational Person: So the gun could in fact be in evidence but images of it have not been released so you'll instead assume it doesn't exist?

ZPN/VPN: Exactly! Now you get it!


TIME GOES ON

Rational Person: I heard they released images of the guy's gun that he had...

ZNP/VPN: Prove to me it wasn't planted...
 
ZNP

ZNP

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#233
Further update

Good news everyone, when Smoke said that "Many here" believe cops should be given a "get out of jail free card" Smoke was not referring to people on this thread or even currently on this forum! I just got a PM from Smoke confirming this.
 
Smoke

Smoke

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#234
Smoke

Smoke

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#235
ZNP, I wouldn't come at the FBI from the angle you're going at it... The "I haven't seen it so it doesn't exist" isn't a compelling argument.

I would instead take the approach of the other brother in this thread. This could have been tactfully done to avoid any loss of life. We need to re-evaluate how we go about serving warrants if we are truly "pro-life" as many here claim (please don't ask me to find 3 people who stated they are pro-life in this thread).
 
Smoke

Smoke

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Oct 27, 2016
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#236
ZNP said:
Why is it that when a felon is shot and killed by the police they show us the body cam footage, they hold up the gun in a press conference, and there is transparency.

This man, who hasn't committed any crime and his so called "threat" was obviously not literal or serious all we get is extremely vague accusations without any transparency and any evidence?
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Because not all law enforcement agents/agencies conduct themselves the same way... especially when we get into the FBI/CIA. Look at Waco for example. I have no doubt that David Koresh was a sick and twisted individual... I don't mean to defend him, but did the ATF really need to handle it the way they did? It was a poop-show to put it lightly.

We need to remember, there is no statutory requirement for law enforcement to give press conferences.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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#237
Smoke said:
Okay, so you don't know... is that what you're saying without saying it? I didn't ask if you read reports from the crooked media if they have the gun in evidence or not... I didn't ask if it's condemnable to not have a press conference to alleviate fear and doubt over the incident. I asked if you know if the gun is in evidence.

I'll repeat, two questions:

1.) Do you know if the gun is in evidence?
2.) What evidence do you have to support the man was unarmed?
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When the Feds come into a suburb, knock down the door at 5 or 6am of a neighbor who doesn't have a criminal record, had not been charged with a crime, and is 70 years old and essentially homebound and then in a matter of seconds shoot and kill him there is a proper procedure that the authorities are expected to do. That is they are to hold a press conference, hold up the evidence for why this action was necessary, so that everyone can see.

We pay taxes and we have the right to wonder why this happened and if we will be next.

What I am saying is that after reading a number of articles on this and seeing several news reports on both mainstream and other news channels this basic requirement was not done. I then started this thread and was very up front about if anyone does have this information to please post a link. You said you had it but the link you posted had nothing that could be used to justify this killing.

Since starting this thread an elderly woman who ran a newspaper in Kansas was also killed in much the same way with a SWAT raid and a man in Tennessee, an invalid and veteran was shot dead in his home. We have three instances of people without any criminal record being shot and killed in their homes, and no evidence that would justify this.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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#238
Sep 14, 2020
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#238
Smoke said:
ZNP, I wouldn't come at the FBI from the angle you're going at it... The "I haven't seen it so it doesn't exist" isn't a compelling argument.

I would instead take the approach of the other brother in this thread. This could have been tactfully done to avoid any loss of life. We need to re-evaluate how we go about serving warrants if we are truly "pro-life" as many here claim (please don't ask me to find 3 people who stated they are pro-life in this thread).
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I'm not, you are twisting what I said.

1. I said I haven't seen the evidence, has anyone else?

and

2. If the gun is not entered into evidence there is no gun.

The first is a very valid question. The second is a fact. If you are claiming that a man aimed a gun at you and therefore you shot him, and that is the claim that is plastered all over the every account of this story, then the gun is evidence that the claim is true.

Never once have I said if I don't see it it doesn't exist. I have asked you and anyone else reading this thread to provide the evidence. You said you had the evidence and you didn't.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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#239
Smoke said:
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...-biden-shot-and-killed-as-fbi-served-warrant/



This isn't PROOF he was indeed armed, but I mean... do we just ignore past and relevant behavior and assume the agents are lying about him really being armed?
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This is a valid reason why they should be concerned and cautious. But this is not evidence that "he pointed a gun at them". The guy was killed in a matter of seconds and no one else was in the house. If he pointed a gun at them and then was shot dead show us the gun. Maybe he pointed his crutches at them since he needed crutches to walk. OK, tell us you made a mistake and shot a 70 year old man who was homebound dead in his house because he pointed a crutch at you.
 
Smoke

Smoke

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Oct 27, 2016
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#240
ZNP said:
When the Feds come into a suburb, knock down the door at 5 or 6am of a neighbor who doesn't have a criminal record, had not been charged with a crime, and is 70 years old and essentially homebound and then in a matter of seconds shoot and kill him there is a proper procedure that the authorities are expected to do. That is they are to hold a press conference, hold up the evidence for why this action was necessary, so that everyone can see. .
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Cherry picking details and ignoring other more relevant details of this guy's life. Really sad and disingenuous.

This is something you really need to understand... They are NOT required to hold a press conference. You can use the word "expectation", but that law doesn't require enforcement agencies to give them out. We both agree that would be in the public's best interest. Getting rid of qualified immunity would also be in the public's best interest... We can hope and expect there is transparency, but the law doesn't demand it unfortunately. Hence, we should be made aware and advocate for the changes we want.

ZNP said:
We pay taxes and we have the right to wonder why this happened and if we will be next.
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You are free to wonder and you're free to make your own conclusions... You're free to ignore past and relevant behavior to insist the man was unarmed as well. You're free pretend your conclusions are facts even if they are just your theories. You're free to question the video footage if and when it ever gets released that the man was indeed unarmed. You're free to ignore gun in evidence if and when it gets released and assume it was a plant.

ZNP said:
What I am saying is that after reading a number of articles on this and seeing several news reports on both mainstream and other news channels this basic requirement was not done. I then started this thread and was very up front about if anyone does have this information to please post a link. You said you had it but the link you posted had nothing that could be used to justify this killing.

Since starting this thread an elderly woman who ran a newspaper in Kansas was also killed in much the same way with a SWAT raid and a man in Tennessee, an invalid and veteran was shot dead in his home. We have three instances of people without any criminal record being shot and killed in their homes, and no evidence that would justify this.
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I thought you asked for 3 sources where the media "plastered" that the man was armed. I did show you 3 sources of the media claiming the man was armed. You never said "Show 3 media sources of them plastering images of the gun the guy was supposedly armed with." Are you moving the goal post again?
 
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