Are the trumpets and vials chronological in Revelation?

[ewq1938]

How can Christ come at the 7th trumpet when that is announcing more divine judgments? Christ will not appear until all judgments have been completed.

That isn't correct. The bible says he comes at the last trump so that's when he does come.

 

[Nehemiah6]

That isn't correct. The bible says he comes at the last trump so that's when he does come.

That applies to the Resurrection/Rapture, not the Second Coming.

1 CORINTHIANS 15: THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [RESURRECTION], and we shall be changed [RAPTURE].

This event takes place at least seven years before the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[GaryA]

The Seventh Trump

Rev 11:15-19​

​

You notice that there is no Second Advent yet.

But, of course there is - read it again...

Revelation 11:

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Do you see in all of this the great change that has taken place? Indeed, the Second Coming of Christ is marked by the Seventh Trump!

The First Vial

Rev 16 [complete chapter]​

​

And for all that, still no Second Advent yet.

Revelation 14:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This is describing the rapture followed by the Wrath of God being "poured out" upon the earth. And, it is Jesus Himself who 'administrates' / 'commands' / 'directs' the "pouring out" of the Wrath of God upon the earth.

The Second Coming of Christ coincides with the 7th Trumpet and occurs before the 'Vials' - which are the 'Wrath of God' that is "poured out" upon the earth - which Jesus Himself 'administrates' / 'commands' / 'directs'.

The literal Second Advent of the Messiah Jesus Christ:

Rev 19:11-21​

​

Revelation 19:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is a picture of Jesus "showing up on the scene" - 'disseminating' the Wrath of God - and, carrying out the event known as Armageddon.

I know that many teach that the Seals, Trumps, and Vials are all the same events spoken of differently (i.e., 1st Seal, 1st Trump, 1st Vial, THEN, 2nd Seal, 2nd Trump, 2nd Vial, etc. through all seven). However, that this is in inaccurate interpretation is seen plainly in the fact that in the very First Vial men on Earth have already taken the mark of the beast, when this mark is not offered until later in the Tribulation, certainly not on day one. and the image referred to isn't set-up until Revelation chapter 13, well into the Tribulation timeline (the First event of the three sevens is Seal #1, and that happens at Revelation chapter 6). The chronological order is Seals, then Trumps, then Vials.

I agree with your statement about the 'parallel' view being an inaccurate interpretation.

(I had intended to include your verse quotes but had to remove them to keep the post under 10,000 characters.)

 

[GaryA]

Christ comes only AFTER all the trumpet judgments have occurred, and only after all the cataclysmic cosmic events have occurred.

Borrowing from your words - the 'cataclysmic cosmic events' are included in the 'trumpet judgments' - which are brought about by the prophecy/testimony of the Two Witnesses.

So the seventh trumpet is not announcing the return of Christ.

Yes it is.

There is another trumpet for that.

No, there is not.

 

[GaryA]

How can Christ come at the 7th trumpet when that is announcing more divine judgments? Christ will not appear until all judgments have been completed.

There is nothing more 'divine judgment' than the KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS showing up and "pouring out" the Wrath of God upon the earth.

 

[GaryA]

Yes. Those seven angels were given seven trumpets TO ANNOUNCE DIVINE JUDGMENTS. Not to herald the Second Coming . But there is another trumpet blown immediately after He returns: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mt 24:31)

This is not the same as the "the last trump" or "the trump of God" which summons the Church saints to Heaven at the Resurrection/Rapture. The one in Matthew 24 summons the believing elect of the Jews to Israel. No angels are sent out at the Resurrection/Rapture since Christ comes for His Bride personally.

No. Same trumpet.

 

[GaryA]

That applies to the Resurrection/Rapture, not the Second Coming.

1 CORINTHIANS 15: THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [RESURRECTION], and we shall be changed [RAPTURE].

This event takes place at least seven years before the Second Coming of Christ.

No. All the same event.

 

[GaryA]

Order Of Events

Trumpet 1
Trumpet 2
Trumpet 3
Trumpet 4
Trumpet 5
Trumpet 6
Heaven / Temple Opened
JESUS
Trumpet 7
Resurrection & Rapture
Pre-Wrath
Vial 1
Vial 2
Vial 3
Vial 4
Vial 5
Vial 6
Armageddon
Vial 7

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

 

[GaryA]

Do not ignore the significance of 'Heaven / Temple Opened' in prophetic verses of scripture - it is not going to occur at any time other than the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[GaryA]

Revelation 11:

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 14:

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 16:

1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 19:

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Same 'wrath'.

 

[GaryA]

Revelation 11:

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 15:

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

Revelation 19:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Same event.

 

[Rondonmon]

Revelation 2 and 3 say nothing about the Church Age or its end. They address seven specific churches. So you are merely speculating.

7 = Divine Completion, how is it you are trying to relay prophetic understanding and you do not know this simple understanding sir?

Jesus told John in Rev. 1 that he was to write the things which he had seen (Jesus in all his eternal glory) The things which are (Rev. 2 and 3 Church Age) and we know Rev. 4:1 SHIFTS the time frame with the things which are HEREAFTER.

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

So, AFTER the things which are (Church Age) John goes to Heaven in spirit, that is exactly how we will be raptured, IN SPIRIT, our sin flesh can not enter heaven, read 1 Cor. 15. Then in Rev. 4:4 we are shown that these 24 Elders represent the Raptured Church.

In Rev. 1:6 Jesus calls us Kings and Priests, the 24 Elders are a coded allegory unto 1 Chronicles 24, where we see 24 Orders of the Priesthood. The in Rev. 5:9-10 they are shown to be Redeemed by Jesus' blood, so that is the Pre Trib Raptured Saints, and they are again called Kings & Priests. Now for the added proof. All one has to do is add up all of these proofs, but first you have to understand the codes and symbology when you see them.

Rev. 4:4 And round about the (1)throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in (2)white raiment; and they had on their heads (3)crowns of gold.

So, you don't think the Church Age ends in Rev. 2 & 3 right? Well this PROVES it does end there.

Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days(10 = Completion, thus for the WHOLE Church Age there will be tribulation, see John 16:33): be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.(3)

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;(2) and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,(1) even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

So, to those who understand, and are specifically called unto prophecy we understand these symbolic codes, I have spent 40 yeas doing just this. Not just a wee bet on a board, but spending hours daily, writing blogs and dissertations on these things. They fit like a glove, but not if we listen to every charleton peddling something, that will only confuse us, believe me I went through all that years ago, Herbert W. Armstrong the cultist, amongst others.

The Church Age is called "The things which are" (Present Age), then after that the things which are HEREAFTER is described in Rev. 4:1 its the 70th week, after the Rapture. Those seen in Rev. 4:4 are ENCODED in the church age passages so we can understand who they are.

I do not speculate, I study pray and follow the holy spirits directives instead of following men's ideas.

 

[GaryA]

so that is the Pre Trib Raptured Saints

thus for the WHOLE Church Age there will be tribulation

How is it that you believe in a pre-trib rapture while also believing there is tribulation throughout the entire church age?

How do you define 'tribulation' in the context of each of the above quoted statements?

 

[Truthnightmare]

But, of course there is - read it again...

Revelation 11:

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Do you see in all of this the great change that has taken place? Indeed, the Second Coming of Christ is marked by the Seventh Trump!


Revelation 14:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This is describing the rapture followed by the Wrath of God being "poured out" upon the earth. And, it is Jesus Himself who 'administrates' / 'commands' / 'directs' the "pouring out" of the Wrath of God upon the earth.

The Second Coming of Christ coincides with the 7th Trumpet and occurs before the 'Vials' - which are the 'Wrath of God' that is "poured out" upon the earth - which Jesus Himself 'administrates' / 'commands' / 'directs'.


Revelation 19:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is a picture of Jesus "showing up on the scene" - 'disseminating' the Wrath of God - and, carrying out the event known as Armageddon.


I agree with your statement about the 'parallel' view being an inaccurate interpretation.

(I had intended to include your verse quotes but had to remove them to keep the post under 10,000 characters.)

Nice to meet you.. I don’t believe in a rapture, when it is inserted into scripture the chronological order of events is disrupted.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Yes. Those seven angels were given seven trumpets TO ANNOUNCE DIVINE JUDGMENTS. Not to herald the Second Coming . But there is another trumpet blown immediately after He returns: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mt 24:31)

This is not the same as the "the last trump" or "the trump of God" which summons the Church saints to Heaven at the Resurrection/Rapture. The one in Matthew 24 summons the believing elect of the Jews to Israel. No angels are sent out at the Resurrection/Rapture since Christ comes for His Bride personally.

If we are told there are 7 trumps, wouldn’t the last trump refer to the seventh? If we believe the last trump comes after the seventh, wouldn’t that make it the eighth or the ninth perhaps the tenth or eleventh…

 

[Rondonmon]

I agree that the description in Joel 2:31 aligns with a similar description in the details of the 6th seal.

Of course, however, as you know I who once demanded a 21 Judgment event now understand the 7 Trumps contain all the judgments and the 7 vials finish off the 7 trumpet judgments. I am not a guy who can't see when God requires a reboot, some people are just not very likely to change opinions once they set in, I think that is why this was my calling long ago. But we agree here on this subset point.

I tend to agree with this - I have long believed that this was the case; however, the possibility exists for it to be somewhat shorter - depending on how quickly the Two Witnesses begin bringing about the Trumpet events with their prophecy/testimony.

The Two-Witnesses are the 1335, they show up 75 days before the 1260, when the Holy Spirit gave this to me I thought it was a Lying Spirit (we are told to try the spirits to see of the be of God) but I went through every point and nothing is out of alignment, the Two-witnesses even die at the 2nd Woe, of course they pray down the 3rd Woe before they die, their ministry is thus finished, I understand they die 75 days before the 3rd Woe ends because they show up 75 days before the Beast shows up at the 1260 middle of the week events. The whole "shorter" mention in Matt. 24 is just Jesus telling them why the Beasts reign is cut short (to only 1260 days), else no life would be left.
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It should be fairly obvious that I said this to make a point - to 'give you some of your own medicine' - to hopefully 'give you pause' - so that you might in some way be willing to reconsider your stance on this topic.

I am OK with correction, medicine, God shows me where I am wrong every day, you know why? I am willing to bein error, always, happy to be told so, because that means I am learning God's truths. 7 or so years ago when I had my heart attack, in short, I asked God why we have so many understandings of prophetic things in these end times when God was supposed to pour out His spirit and show us the church all things. And He answered me, "Ron, you guys already know it all"

So, I understood what the Lord was telling me straight off. A lot of stuff we think we know we do not know because we got it from other men BEFORE God was willing to reveal these things, so now in these end times, He can't get us off of those old wrongheaded understandings like the 144,00 are Super Preachers, that is nowhere in the bible. But because of this we can't see that the 144,000 like the Woman is really just a CODE for All Israel who repent. And on and on it goes. Reading 1 Cor. 15 very carefully it is obvious that what the "CHANGE" means is we change from this physical body to a Spiritual body when web go to heaven, and thus leaving our body behind means in the blink of an eye we DIE. Now, when one reads like verses 40-52 it is very obvious that is what this means, but we have guys who insist we fly of in this body and go to heaven, or change into another "Glorious Body" on the way when Rev. 19 says Jesus gives us our new White Robes (Glorious Bodies) in heaven.

Lets see, in the verses it says this, no flesh can enter heaven, it says the Dead are raised without CORRUPTION, which means with no sin flesh, they are raised as Spirit Men. It says this in the passage watch this. You just have to back up a wee bit.

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So, we just need to add it all up, the Dead are raised without corruption, meaning as Spirit Men. Then at the time of the Rapture those who are alive will be CHANGED, which means our Spirit Men, goes to be with the Lord, just like those raised from the dead, because no Sin Flesh can enter heaven. So, now add it all up and it is a GUGE DIFFERENCE, now we are not looking at a billion men who go missing, but a Billion Deaths !! Is this nuance important? Yes, very much so, if we can tell the normies what is coming, and then they see it come to pass, maybe that will make them see the light in time to chose God. Hey, normal men and when who do not know Christ, you will soon see a Billion Men & Woman all die at once, that is the Rapture. The facts do matter.

So, since that prayer, I asked God to always show me when I am wrong, we have to be ready to be wrong, and God can then whisper it to us. I had wrote a long blog citing Rome as THAT CITY in Rev. 17:18 when the holy spirit was like, Ron you are WRONG, look at what John actually SAW !! So I looked, and the vison is only 4 verses, and John saw Babylon, not Rome, which I inserted as meaning Rome because it was in John's time, like other people did. But I knew God whispered that to me for a reason so I relooked at the vision of 4 verses very carefully. I saw that Mystery (Musterion or Secret by God's Silence) was not a part of four descriptors, there was only three, Mystery was a HEADER like a Question Mark, then we got a Comma, it was never Mystery Babylon, vs. 7 confirms this, the Angel says come I will show you the Mystery of the Harlot AND the Beast she rides. Babylon was 1 of 3 descriptors. So, the Angel explained it all, we all just missed it and continued to call it Mystery Babylon mistakenly. These Three Descriptors explain who the Harlot is 100 percent.

Mystery (?)

1.) Babylon the Great ( Babylon was renowned worldwide for its FALSE RELIGION )
2.) Mother of Harlots ( FALSE RELIGION was the original Harlotry unto God not False Government )
3.) Abominations of the Earth ( God is a jealous God, he hates all FALLSE RELIGION )

Harlots in the city centers wore name tags so their clientele could see who they were when they were sent to the city center. We are getting Three NAME TAGS here, Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots, and Abominations of the whole earth, these describe ALL FALSE RELIGION of All Time, this is why she sits n MANY WATERS, this is why she has the blood of the Saints (Jews and Prophets) AND the blood of the Martyrs of Jesus on her hands, she was on both sides of the cross. She wears Scarlet and Purple because they were exclusive colors that were expensive to create, only the Royals (Gov.) and Religious Orders (Harlot Religions mostly) could afford them. So, the Harlot (False Religion) RODE the Beast or False Governments down through the ages, they all had false religions intermingled in their Governments, from Egypt, to Babylon, to Greece and Rome.

The Harlot is False Religion, the 10 Kings (Complete E.U. Reunited) kills her off at the end (Rev. 17:16). Why, because unlike the other Beats, this last beast demands to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD. Rev. 18 is Babylon (The WHOLE WORLD) being Judged.

So, if I do not follow men's ideas, that is OK, because our calling is to be led by the Holy Spirit.

At the point where any of us truly believe we "cannot be in error" - it is at that point that we fall into error - even if only with regard to our attitude.

We can, and as just shown, I have been many times, the difference is when God reproves you, instead of GUESSING you now know, that you know, that you know. Its a totally different thing, as you know, than guessing or having a "BELIEF" and/or THESIS on something.

Because I believe it might be beneficial, I intend to spend some time today putting together a post that discusses those things you have said in posts #46 and #53 of this thread of which we actually seem to be in agreement.

Where 'our' [previous] conversation is concerned in this thread - please wait for it.

In the meanwhile, out of curiosity, I have a couple of questions for you...

Just how "young" do you think I am?

43-47 maybe a wee bit younger, not sure people can use younger pics. I been on your Youtube channel also, I watch everyone, I give everyone a look see. I just don't often interact. In am am nigh 60. Reading in bible school I could say 55 years, but I only count when my calling occurred at like 21-22.

 

[GaryA]

Nice to meet you.. I don’t believe in a rapture, when it is inserted into scripture the chronological order of events is disrupted.

Nice to meet you, too. Welcome to CC.

Why do you not believe in a rapture? The word 'rapture' is not in scripture; however, the event that we call "the rapture" is described in scripture.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Nice to meet you, too. Welcome to CC.

Why do you not believe in a rapture? The word 'rapture' is not in scripture; however, the event that we call "the rapture" is described in scripture.

Well.. scripture shows that there are Christians on the earth at the time of the tribulation. There are variations of the rapture, which one do you subscribe to?

 

[Rondonmon]

In my honest estimation, there are [very precious] few if any members of this site that have a greater ability than I to 'override' what they already believe if/when presented "new information" that may disagree with what they have been taught.

The biggest problem is people talk past each other on here trying to get "PONITS ACROSS" and don't listen well, you agree? I listen, because I do not skim posts, In reply in full, I catch people asking questions again to things I explained meaning they really do not read the posts yet still reply. If you are going to reply (this is in general) read the post or just skip it, don't reply just to paste a long diatribe. I interact, and post things to get reflection and thought, too many people today lack the ability to go back and forth hash things out. I learned many, many things from tough back and forths with other guys, now-a-days people get offended. That is how we sharpen our swords. I am tough, but no cry baby, I like the back and forth.

In occasional posts, I may be found telling others that they must be able and willing to "suspend" what they believe when studying scripture if they are to obtain the real-and-true meaning of what they are studying - especially when studying prophecy. Why? Because, the things we [think we] know - including the things we are taught and assume - can sometimes get in the way of proper interpretation of scripture.

I have this ability and utilize it when needed while studying the Bible (especially when studying prophecy).

But alas, you may be saying this, unconsciously in order to get others to listen to your POV and place more authority on it. But alas, nevertheless on Prophecy this is a must needs, but we have to always check ourselves on these things.

I never said anything about 21 Judgments - nor do I believe that there are 21 Judgments [as such].

I believe that there are three 'judgments' (in the context of this topic) - each being in its own unique form and having seven parts.

In using the word 'form', I mean that the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are different types of 'judgment' - each for a different purpose.

Well, three x 7 = 21, same effect. It means you still think the Seals are Judgments. And my whole point is they are not. So, we are at the exact same impasse it seems on that point of emphasis.

Jesus "opened" the seals during/within the Revelation vision of John. They were all 'loosed' at that time. The 'events' associated with the "opening" of those seals followed thereafter - over the next ~2000 years - as of now, some are past, some are yet future.

Oh noooooooooo, not even close, you are one of those guys who buy into the whole Rev. 5 theory about "No man was found worthy on Earth, in Heaven or under the earth to open the Seals" thus you guts insist Jesus had not died on the cross yet, but alas John then sees a Bloody Lamb so Jesus is Seal #1 and the Anti-Christ "spirit" is seals 2, 3, 4 and 5 and he's been killing the Saints for 2000 years (something close to that anyway). And I destroy this with my NOWHERE MAN thesis. Look again, it says NO MAN was on earth, nor IN HEAVEN, nor under the earth, so Jesus has to be a Nowhere man. Facts are wo fold here, Jesus is not a Man he is God the Redeemer, the bloody lamb. The Seals are all broken after the Church Age Ends (Rev. 2 & 3) See my post on that. It is called the HEREAFTER in Rev. 4:1 meaning after the Church Age. This is WAY OFF STUFF my friend.

I believe you are misinterpreting what 'for in them is filled up' is really saying.

Just because something "negative" happens does not automatically make it part of the 'Wrath of God'.

Just because something is called a 'plague' does not automatically make it part of the 'Wrath of God'.

As a reminder:

I have studied it in depth, it means finishes off.

It will be impossible to get me to buy into much you say on Prophecy brother when you do not understand the Seals are not even events, which most don't tbh, but that they are PAST EVENTS. That is a no no in my book.

God Bless

 

[GaryA]

43-47 maybe a wee bit younger, not sure people can use younger pics. I been on your Youtube channel also, I watch everyone, I give everyone a look see. I just don't often interact. In am am nigh 60. Reading in bible school I could say 55 years, but I only count when my calling occurred at like 21-22.

Since I have never in my life even created an account on Youtube, and do not have a Youtube channel, I am really curious about the one you have seen that you think is mine. Would you please give me a link or something? I just have to check this out...

Oh - BTW - I am actually older than you - I will soon reach 61.

So - we are "about the same age"... (or, in the same age bracket)