There will be no Rapture!!!

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 5, 2023

@Thruthnightmare 's Post #399, where you'd asked,

"The question is caught up to where?"

Well, first we need to back up and address what you'd put in another recent post,

"The subject is where the dead are [1Th4:13-18]"

I propose that THIS is NOT the understood question that Paul is addressing here in this text.

He is addressing the understood question of,
"HOW will it be the case that "GOD SHALL ALSO BRING WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him/Jesus" the dead in Christ," seeing as they've died beforehand.

Paul says, Here's HOW. The dead in Christ SHALL RISE FIRST... then explains the "caught up together with" them thing... and further says, "AND SO [IN THIS MANNER] shall WE ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord"... (there is NO "UNIONed-with Him" thing PRIOR TO the "caught up together with them" thing (in glorified bodies), see! So the "shall God bring with [G4862 UNIONed-with] Him" cannot be speaking of them coming with Him in their spirits from where they are presently "at home with [G4314 - pros] the Lord" when He descends from heaven with a shout FOR "the meeting of the Lord in the air" thing. No.)

IOW, Paul is not concerning them with a supposed worry about "where their dead loved ones are presently [as believers]," as you've suggested.

And Paul is not saying that God will "BRING WITH [UNIONed-with] HIM" those dead in Christ when He is going to "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" point in time:

"... so also God those having fallen asleep through Jesus shall bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"... when He RETURNS to the earth in Rev19, visibly manifest before all eyes, and we [the ENTIRE "Church which is His body," none left out (just b/c they'd "died")] with Him

(see word order https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm );

same thing that Col3:4 is talking about, where it says, "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear [to make manifest], then shall ye also appear with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] him in glory.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 5, 2023

@Truthmighhtmare 's Post #400,

"Why haven't these saints been raptured?"

Number 1, because "rapture" does NOT pertain to them.

Number 2, because they had not come to faith in Christ prior to the point in time when the "rapture" (pertaining SOLELY TO "the Church which is His body," i.e. ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"... see Eph1:20-23's WHEN, as to its existence]) took place;

However, they WILL enter into the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (never having lifted off the earth), whether in resurrected bodies (like those in Rev20:4b) or "still-living"/MORTAL bodies (like those that Rev20:4a / Dan7:22 is speaking of... as well as Dan12:13's "BLESSED," and Matt25:31-34's "BLESSED," and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44's "BLESSED," and Rev19:9's "BLESSED" [etc, etc]... about 8-10 "BLESSED" passages, all told, speaking to this same time-slot / circumstances).

["rapture" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (us); it does NOT pertain to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints]

Truthnightmare · Sep 5, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

But that’s not what it says.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

He clearly says that he is going to talk about where the dead are. That is the subject.

The objective is to inform us of where they are and what is to come regarding them, so we don’t worry.

Subject and object. You are trying to change it. You want it to say “I would not have you be ignorant of who Christ is going to bring with him”

That is not what it says. And if you start changing subject and object you can make any thing out to be what you want it to be. I refuse to take such liberties.

Truthnightmare · Sep 5, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

So the rapture doesn’t pertain to the saints of Revelation 13, but it does to others? And how are we to know which saints does pertain to?
You get to decide?

What do you mean the saints had not come to the faith? They are called “saints” because they are of the faith.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

It doesn’t say saints that haven’t come to the faith yet. It says “saints” plain and simple. You are literally changing the word of God.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 5, 2023

@Truthnightmare 's posts...

"that ye sorrow not, even as others who have no HOPE"

This speaks to the future bodily resurrection, as well as what else happens at that time (its purposes, one could say). Major theme throughout NT epistles, btw. = )

____________

I said, the ones Rev13 is speaking of HAD NOT COME TO FAITH IN CHRIST *BEFORE* THE RAPTURE HAD TAKEN PLACE, this is why they were not "raptured" (logic 101

, lol)

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 5, 2023

Rev13:5,7 = Dan7:21 "the same horn made war with the saints AND PREVAILED AGAINST them"

(what does Jesus say about His Church??... "... the gates of hell SHALL NOT PREVAIL against IT!")

You are wanting to equate that which is distinct.

Truthnightmare · Sep 5, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Truthnightmare · Sep 5, 2023

1 I would not have you to be ignorant: = Apostle Paul is telling us that he wishes to inform us of something so that we are not without understanding in the matter. #2 concerning them which are asleep: = Paul is now telling us what it is that he wishes to understand; He wants us to know what happens to those who 'sleep' (die). #3 that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope: = Paul is saying that the reason that he wants to inform us of what happens when people die is so that we do not feel sad like those who have no hope of a resurrection into everlasting life (the heathen, who believe not upon Christ, having no hope of a resurrection into eternal life). Paul does not want us Christians to be like the heathen unbelievers. The subject of these verses is: "Where are the dead?" Nothing more, nothing less.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 5, 2023

The outcome of the rapture of the Church is shown way back in Rev4-5, where the 24 elders sitting on 24 thrones and wearing the already-awarded "stephanous / crowns" are saying, in 5:9, "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood out-of EVERY..." and that's BEFORE Jesus will STAND to JUDGE by His opening the FIRST SEAL (kick-off to Trib yrs)

ewq1938 · Sep 5, 2023

cv5 said:

You don't understand how pronouns are used in Greek grammar because you haven't taken any courses in the Greek language. The ten horned beast is not a man just because "he" is used as a pronoun.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 5, 2023

@Truthnightmare 's Post #408,

"that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

again, I think the word order in v.15 helps a bit... as well as the "so / in this manner shall WE ever be WITH [UNIONed-with] the Lord"<--iow, not apart from the "caught up [G726]" thing! (with the necessity of glorified bodies)

In the NT, the "HOPE" does not pertain merely to our bodily resurrection (and "that's that!, nothing else!"), though it is certainly that too!

ewq1938 · Sep 5, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

lol...you mentioned a corporate "you" but don't understand the "singular" virgin is not corporate? Jesus is marrying a MASSIVE amount of people, male and female, in a SYMBOLIC marriage of one virgin whop represents MANY MANY people.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 5, 2023

"... so also God those having fallen asleep through Jesus shall bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"

(not BEFORE the "UNIONed-WITH" Him thing takes place [requiring our glorified bodies], though, see!)

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 5, 2023

ewq1938 said:

Obviously I know that there are MANY MEMBERS of the ONE BODY!!

But it is called "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]"... not FIVE VIRGINS!

--see also Ephesians 5:30-31,32

(He is not MARRYING the ppl in the Matthew 25 context! though they are the "wise" / "saved" / saints / believers and will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies upon His "RETURN" there, just as the Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 ppl will!)

ewq1938 · Sep 5, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

That is not from the bible. It is imaginary, fiction created by Pretribbers. The saints of the GT were not raptured because there is no rapture until the GT has ended. That's why the war against the church is waged by satan in the trib.

ewq1938 · Sep 5, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

You are being hypocritical due to theological bias. If YOU is corporate, so is the virgin. In the parable, he is coming for ten virgins, but only 5 are there. They represent those who will be raptured to meet with Christ.

Yes he is. That is literally the context of the parable.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 5, 2023

ewq1938 said:

2Cor11:2. "virgin" in this verse IS NOT "PLURAL" (like it is in Matt25!)

I'm not being hypocritical.

I'm looking at the ACTUAL GRAMMAR of the actual text itself,

and it says (in this verse):

3933 [e]
parthenon
παρθένον
a virgin
N-AFS [<--the "S" here stands for "SINGULAR"]

I'm not "making stuff up" due to theological bias... but consider that maybe you yourself are doing so.

(I'm letting the text itself inform my understanding.)

Take a look for yourself at the Interlinear of this verse:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/11-2.htm

ewq1938 · Sep 5, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Everyone knows it's not written in the plural form. You are employing a strawman fallacy. The singular VIRGIN is CORPORATE like "YOU" is. BOTH ARE SINGULAR but BOTH refer to multiple people.

You are being hypocritical and inconsistent.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 5, 2023

ewq1938 said:

No, the grammar of the text shows that "you" is in the PLURAL; whereas "virgin" is in the SINGULAR.

[so why are you saying "BOTH ARE SINGULAR," when clearly this is not the case?!--see below, and at link]

Check it out in the Interlinear I'd provided, which proves this to be the case:

2 2206 [e]
2 zēlō
2 ζηλῶ
2 I am jealous as to
2 V-PIA-1S

1063 [e]
gar
γὰρ
for
Conj

4771 [e]
hymas
ὑμᾶς
you
PPro-A2P [I underlined the "P" which represents the "PLURAL" in the grammar--i.e. corporate, PLURAL 'you']

2316 [e]
Theou
Θεοῦ
of God
N-GMS

2205 [e]
zēlō
ζήλῳ ;
with [the] jealousy
N-DMS

718 [e]
hērmosamēn
ἡρμοσάμην
I have betrothed
V-AIM-1S

1063 [e]
gar
γὰρ
for
Conj

4771 [e]
hymas
ὑμᾶς
you
PPro-A2P [again, I underlined the "P" which tells us that "you" is "PLURAL" here--i.e. corporate, PLURAL 'you']

1520 [e]
heni
ἑνὶ
to one
Adj-DMS

435 [e]
andri
ἀνδρὶ ,
husband
N-DMS

3933 [e]
parthenon
παρθένον
a virgin
N-AFS [I'm underlining the "S" that shows that the word "virgin" is "SINGULAR" in this text]

53 [e]
hagnēn
ἁγνὴν
pure
Adj-AFS

3936 [e]
parastēsai
παραστῆσαι
to present
V-ANA

3588 [e]
tō
τῷ
-
Art-DMS

5547 [e]
Christō
Χριστῷ .
to Christ
N-DMS

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/11-2.htm

Again, I'm only stating what the TEXT ITSELF STATES, regarding each of these words (plural where plural; singular where singular).

It's your choice if you want to disregard what the GRAMMAR ITSELF is telling us.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 5, 2023

At times, in the NT, the word "you" is in the singular;

however, this verse (2Cor11:2) is NOT one of those times!

(...and in a great many other instances, too, which ppl often tend to misapply by their reading a verse with a plural 'you' as though it is saying a singular 'you,' but which it isn't.

)

There will be no Rapture!!!

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