Are the trumpets and vials chronological in Revelation?
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Not necessarily. If there are two groups of trumpets -- those announcing judgments and those heralding salvation. And that is exactly what we find. The seven trumpets of Revelation announce judgments.
It is implied in those chapters if you wish. But it is demonstrated in the absence of the words "church" or "churches" from Rev 6-18. The Church is absent during that time.
TRUMPETS FOR JUDGMENTS: REV 8:1,2
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. The rest of the chapter describes those judgments.
TRUMPETS FOR SALVATION OR ITS CULMINATION
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thess 4:16)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor 15:51,52)
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mt 24:41)
It's what scripture says.
Here is the only passage about The Rapture that actually uses the Greek word that means a rapture, Harpazo:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)
Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.
There is no such thing as two groups of trumpets in end times prophetic scripture. There is one group of only 7.
The absence of a specific word is known as the absence from silence fallacy. The church is mentioned many times throughout Rev.
That's just blind denial due to theological bias. In other words, it doesn't matter to you what scripture says about when the rapture happens because you have a belief that doesn't match what the bible says and you will defend that belief relentlessly.
You do have a way of putting a personal spin on Scripture to prove your wrong beliefs.
How do you spin Rev. 20 and the first resurrection to fit your wrong belief?
And please not this foolish that it comes in stages.
Reason #1 - because that is when the Second Coming of Christ occurs
Reason #2 - so that the saved are "out of the way" before the Wrath of God is "poured out" upon the earth
Consider:
~ Christ returns (Second Advent)
~ Resurrection/Rapture
~ Wrath of God
All of those who are raptured are with Jesus in the air while the Wrath of God is being "poured out" upon the earth.
~ [Armageddon] (during Wrath of God / Vials)
~ Christ sets foot on the earth, etc.
I don't think the out of the way reason is valid as God can protect someone standing next to let's say the Ac or whoever. It's more valid that the saved should be taken to be united with the others and view the wrath from Christ's standpoint as witnesses. It's similar how Christ, angels and the saved are all together at the GWTJ to witness the judging and LOF punishment.
So, in your scenario above, all believers are glorified (and taken "out of the way" for the Vials-wrath), and all unbelievers then experience those Vials-wrath... and then Christ sets foot on the earth, etc.
My question to you is, in your viewpoint, who is it talking about where Rev19:15b says (at that time-slot of His Second Coming), "...and He SHALL [future tense] shepherd / rule [G4165] them [the nations] with a rod [sceptre--see Heb1:8] of iron [righteousness and strength]"... ?
If the believers in 20:4 are said to "reign with Christ a thousand years," what does "reign with Christ" look like [/mean]? All glorified believers reigning with Christ over all other glorified believers, or... what? What are you saying of this, here?
And what is your view of what Jesus had told "the 12," in Luke 22:30 and in Matthew 19:28 [note the "timing" in this verse, as that also found in Matt25:31-34, that is, a Second Coming to the earth setting, i.e. when the MK age is going to be commencing upon His return to the earth (Rev19 on),] where these two passages (Lk / Mt) show Jesus saying to them, "ye shall sit on twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel" (i.e. in the MK age). Is your viewpoint saying that "glorified" persons (from the 12 tribes of Israel, saved) will require "the 12" to "sit on thrones, judgING" them? Why does Jesus say this to them?
In your viewpoint (it seems to me, correct me if I'm mis-reading you), you don't seem to believe there will be any "mortals" (as believers) who will ENTER the MK age... as all believers were raptured and glorified, and all unbelievers suffered the Vials-wrath.
Please explain. = )
Thanks.
But, aren't you playing guessing games?
We know that God can do anything that He wishes to do - the question is - what will He do that is in accordance with 'the way He does things' - which is based on His character, will, plan, etc.
Valid? Sure. More valid? I kinda doubt it. I am pretty sure it is in the list somewhere; however - 'the way He does things' actually determines this...
Another colossal assumption that the vast majority of Christians seem to make. I believe there will be more happening at the GWTJ than you have been taught to believe. The 'Judgment Seat of Christ' is not a separate judgment than the GWTJ - they are one-and-the-same - and, everyone will be there - saved and lost - and, all will be judged - with regard to 'salvation' as well as 'works'.
Before anyone responds to this - please ponder very carefully what this verse is saying in the context of the last five verses of the chapter:
Revelation 20:
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Does it not directly imply that there will be those who are found written in the book of life and not cast into the lake of fire?
It can be viewed both ways but since only the unsaved are being judged, it will be a 100 percent not found in the book situation. Remember that there is a resurrection and judgment and scripture states that there is a resurrection of the just, and a resurrection of the unjust. The resurrection of the just happens at the second coming, and so the next resurrection and subsequent judgment is only of the unjust. They are never judged at the same time nor resurrected at the same time.
Jesus will rule for 1000 years "with a rod of iron"...So, in your scenario above, all believers are glorified (and taken "out of the way" for the Vials-wrath), and all unbelievers then experience those Vials-wrath... and then Christ sets foot on the earth, etc.
My question to you is, in your viewpoint, who is it talking about where Rev19:15b says (at that time-slot of His Second Coming), "...and He SHALL [future tense] shepherd / rule [G4165] them [the nations] with a rod [sceptre--see Heb1:8] of iron [righteousness and strength]"... ?
If the believers in 20:4 are said to "reign with Christ a thousand years," what does "reign with Christ" look like [/mean]? All glorified believers reigning with Christ over all other glorified believers, or... what? What are you saying of this, here?
And what is your view of what Jesus had told "the 12," in Luke 22:30 and in Matthew 19:28 [note the "timing" in this verse, as that also found in Matt25:31-34, that is, a Second Coming to the earth setting, i.e. when the MK age is going to be commencing upon His return to the earth (Rev19 on),] where these two passages (Lk / Mt) show Jesus saying to them, "ye shall sit on twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel" (i.e. in the MK age). Is your viewpoint saying that "glorified" persons (from the 12 tribes of Israel, saved) will require "the 12" to "sit on thrones, judgING" them? Why does Jesus say this to them?
In your viewpoint (it seems to me, correct me if I'm mis-reading you), you don't seem to believe there will be any "mortals" (as believers) who will ENTER the MK age... as all believers were raptured and glorified, and all unbelievers suffered the Vials-wrath.
Please explain. = )
Thanks.
believers 'glorified' - rule with Christ over all 'mortals'
The Bible does not give us much detail about how a group of saved mortals "survive" into the Millennium.
I believe that the "new population" for the 1000 years starts with the 144,000 - twelve tribes of 'mortals'. Somehow, they end up married and build the population - how exactly the [saved] women who become their wives come into the picture, I am not sure. However, what seems to make the most sense is related to the fact that - during all of this - "Jews wake up and repent" upon the discovery that it actually was their Messiah they crucified.
I do not believe that it is necessarily true that all mortals die during the "pouring out" of the Wrath of God; rather, I believe that some are still alive "when it is over" so that they "survive" to continue...
In any case, I definitely believe there will be a [saved] "start-up" mortal population going into the Millennium.
The bible promises a rule over them so they survive by not being targeted for death.
I believe them to be Christians, and thus will be made immortal at the Coming which means no marrying or having children.
Yep.
Not me. The dead in Christ are resurrected and the living changed into immortals avoiding death. I don't see any saved person being able to avoid immortality.