Romans 13 and submitting to a corrupt government

[maxwel]

I think there is a lot of nuance here... nuance that American Christians have never really parsed through...

because in the past we never had to.


Since this is new for us, overall, I think a lot of well-meaning people use a lot of reductionist arguments to arrive at oversimplified, and inadequate answers... on all sides.


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[posthuman]

Sure we do. The people in the US have a constitutional duty to throw off such a government. The rights of the people are guaranteed in the constitution, not the government.

The US constitution condemns treasonous rebellion against the state.

it is the declaration of independence, not the constitution, that says when a despot is grossly abusive to his people, the people have a duty to throw it off.

America is not ruled by a king but a body of temporarily elected officials, expressly for the purpose of preventing tyrannical despotism by a single man or woman holding absolute unchallenged power for a lifetime.

You don't like the current temporary leadership? then in 4 years cast a vote. that is the perogative of the elibile voting populace, not seeking violent overthrow of the government.

and that is all purely worldly secular talk - the constitution does not give the people the right to treason.
The Bible in the other hand does not suggest the Christian should involve themselves in secular government in any way shape or form whatsoever - the Bible explicitly commands the Christian to respect and obey whatever governing authority they happen to find themselves under, whether it is just or unjust.

As previously put, the only exception scripture gives you to obedience to the government is if the government is requiring you, you personally, to sin under penalty of law.
The worldly government excusing or allowing others to sin is NOT an excuse for us to reject it's authority, and the population of America voting for someone or something you don't personally like is in no way at all, neither secularly or spiritually, an excuse for any of us to seek to overthrow it outside of exercising our own secular right to cast a vote for our preference into the pool of the whole population's individual preferences.

sedition and treason are definitely NOT Christian values. they are expressly the opposite of them.

 

[JohnB]

Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit, wrote Romans 13 while Nero was caeser.

we do not have any justification whatsoever as Christians to reject the authority of our earthly governments on the grounds that we consider it corrupt.

I stopped voting decades ago. I cannot bring myself to vote for anyone that is corrupt. Even if they are GOD's choice.

 

[Cameron143]

The US constitution condemns treasonous rebellion against the state.

it is the declaration of independence, not the constitution, that says when a despot is grossly abusive to his people, the people have a duty to throw it off.

America is not ruled by a king but a body of temporarily elected officials, expressly for the purpose of preventing tyrannical despotism by a single man or woman holding absolute unchallenged power for a lifetime.

You don't like the current temporary leadership? then in 4 years cast a vote. that is the perogative of the elibile voting populace, not seeking violent overthrow of the government.

and that is all purely worldly secular talk - the constitution does not give the people the right to treason.
The Bible in the other hand does not suggest the Christian should involve themselves in secular government in any way shape or form whatsoever - the Bible explicitly commands the Christian to respect and obey whatever governing authority they happen to find themselves under, whether it is just or unjust.

As previously put, the only exception scripture gives you to obedience to the government is if the government is requiring you, you personally, to sin under penalty of law.
The worldly government excusing or allowing others to sin is NOT an excuse for us to reject it's authority, and the population of America voting for someone or something you don't personally like is in no way at all, neither secularly or spiritually, an excuse for any of us to seek to overthrow it outside of exercising our own secular right to cast a vote for our preference into the pool of the whole population's individual preferences.

sedition and treason are definitely NOT Christian values. they are expressly the opposite of them.

I should have presented it differently. The government of the United States is we the people. Those who are elected are employees of the citizens. When they violate their oaths of office, they are not to be allowed to continue in those offices. They are the ones who are acting treasonously and seditiously. They are one's who are breaking the law and acting to overthrow we the people. Such a group would supplant our freedoms and remove our liberties. They are the one's who are overthrowing the government. They are the traitors. They should be dealt with as such. Our founding fathers would have done so long ago.

 

[JohnB]

I should have presented it differently. The government of the United States is we the people. Those who are elected are employees of the citizens. When they violate their oaths of office, they are not to be allowed to continue in those offices. They are the ones who are acting treasonously and seditiously. They are one's who are breaking the law and acting to overthrow we the people. Such a group would supplant our freedoms and remove our liberties. They are the one's who are overthrowing the government. They are the traitors. They should be dealt with as such. Our founding fathers would have done so long ago.

Noble thought, but we have way too many low intelligent voters who keep voting for the same people

 

[JohnB]

Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit, wrote Romans 13 while Nero was caeser.

we do not have any justification whatsoever as Christians to reject the authority of our earthly governments on the grounds that we consider it corrupt.

Hard to support a government that is bent on doing you and me harm.

 

[Cameron143]

Noble thought, but we have way too many low intelligent voters who keep voting for the same people

Noble thoughts are merely waiting on noble people to become noble deeds.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Hard to support a government that is bent on doing you and me harm.

Poor John, everyone's out to get you: The Christians, God, the government, bad luck, unscrupulous creditors, Calvary Chapel, uncaring family who have used and abused you. I would think someone with your intelligence wouldn't be such a victim.

 

[maxwel]

Hard to support a government that is bent on doing you and me harm.

The Bible doesn't tell us to "support" a corrupt government, and that wasn't what posthuman said.


Bible Principles & Honesty:
- If we are going to have honest and meaningful conversations about difficult things:
we need to be honest with each other, we need to stop straw manning each other, and we need to subject ourselves to scripture regardless of how we feel.
- That comes with the intrinsic understanding that all fundamental principles must start with scripture, and then we must be very very careful about interpreting and applying that scripture.


The Bible tells us to be wise... so let's learn to be wise.


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[NightTwister]

...and, sometimes, you can purchase a six-pack of rulers for only $2.98 on TEMU:

https://www.temu.com/ul/kuiper/un9....MIpvii_d-dgQMV-EdHAR3RqApnEAQYAiABEgJi-fD_BwE

On a more serious note, did the Hebrew midwives "submit" to the king of Egypt's or Pharaoh's command in relation to killing all Hebrew males?

Exodus 1:15-22

"And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty. And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses. And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive."

No, they did not because they feared God more than they feared the possible wrath of Pharaoh.

What was God's response?

Did he condemn the midwives for their act of civil disobedience?

No, he did not.

Instead, he dealt well with them, and made them houses.

And what about Moses' parents?

Exodus 2:1-2

"And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi. And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months."

Here is what the New Testament has to say about this act of civil disobedience:

Hebrews 11:23

"By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment."

Wait, what?

"They were not afraid of the king's commandment?"

I thought (not really...I am being sarcastic) that we were supposed to be afraid of violating the ordinances of governing powers because they are God's ministers who execute wrath upon the disobedient.

Again, Paul was talking about good rulers in Romans chapter 13, and not about wicked rulers like Pharaoh whom God himself greatly opposed, judged, and ultimately killed.

How about the Magi?

Matthew 2:7-8

"Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also."

Did the Magi obey what Herod told them to do?

Matthew 2:12

"And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way."

No, they did not, and God himself told them to disobey what Herod had instructed them to do.

I could go on and on.

Again, let's use our God-given brains.

You didn't read my comment, clearly.

 

[NightTwister]

That was their government, Roman Government was built to be brutal and tyrannical from its inception. It did not (derive its just powers from consent of the governed) as American government does. application of this is different for an American Christian versus a North Korean Christian “we the people” Per the US Constitution are the rulers (representative self rule) . If the representatives we elect aren’t representative of our will we can take action and push for change weather petition, ballot box , or protest. Especially if the government is passing legislation that encourages sin (like it is currently) and restricts Christians from practicing faith. In USA we the citizens are the government and non compliance to unjust rule becomes obedience to God.

Yet Paul does not address the method or type of government at all.

 

[NightTwister]

Sure we do. The people in the US have a constitutional duty to throw off such a government. The rights of the people are guaranteed in the constitution, not the government.

The Revolutionary War was an unjust war based on Romans 13.

 

[NightTwister]

I do not deny Rome was evil, but Rome did not kill millions of it's citizens for the benefit and profit of a few. Who is really evil?

you'll have to elaborate more on that.

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

You didn't read my comment, clearly.

I read it, and more than once.

Having said that, I probably owe you an explanation/apology. I only partially quoted what you said to make my silly joke at the beginning of my post. After that, my comments were not really directed towards you, but towards everybody. I can easily see how it might appear otherwise, so I apologize for any confusion that I might have caused.

 

[posthuman]

Hard to support a government that is bent on doing you and me harm.

doing you harm?

give an example.

 

[posthuman]

The Revolutionary War was an unjust war based on Romans 13.

And many church leaders argued exactly that!

American churches were very much split on the issue - as they were too on the civil war - with a large proportion choosing not to comment at all because they were worldly matters, having nothing to do with the gospel.

The revolutionary war was not a church decision and the driving forces behind it were not religious ones. it was about people not wanting to pay taxes, and to choose their own secular leadership (or to have such power and authority for themselves, in the case of the richest and most most influential people in the colonies)

And we set up this country in such a way as to avoid religious persuasions having anything to do with secular government: whether to interfere with religious freedom. or to start wars or topple governments over religious ideals.

 

[Seeker47]

you'll have to elaborate more on that.

Only time can be my witness. Pay attention to independent sources. The truth is slowly leaking out.

 

[FollowingtheWay]

Yet Paul does not address the method or type of government at all.

werent the Sadducees a part of Roman Government? While Jesus Romes taxation and protocol. I’m pretty sure Jesus did not obey the Sadducees

 

[FollowingtheWay]

And many church leaders argued exactly that!

American churches were very much split on the issue - as they were too on the civil war - with a large proportion choosing not to comment at all because they were worldly matters, having nothing to do with the gospel.

The revolutionary war was not a church decision and the driving forces behind it were not religious ones. it was about people not wanting to pay taxes, and to choose their own secular leadership (or to have such power and authority for themselves, in the case of the richest and most most influential people in the colonies)

And we set up this country in such a way as to avoid religious persuasions having anything to do with secular government: whether to interfere with religious freedom. or to start wars or topple governments over religious ideals.

Disagree- from its organic origins
“Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith and Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the First Colony in the Northern Parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another, Covenant and Combine ourselves together into a ... Mayflower compact 1620

 

[Gojira]

I've stated my views before, and I'll state them again. But, this grows tiresome, and I may not contribute too much more to this. And, I am only stating my opinion. But...

Paul said that government is there to keep people from doing evil, essentially. But, what if that government does evil? Then what? He doesn't address that. But, Dietrich Bonhoeffer did, and I agree with his premise. If the government begins to stand for evil, then push-back becomes necessary.

Paul used his civil rights as a Roman to protect himself from the abuse of authorities in one incident. He didn't fully submit. But, he also did allow himself to be imprisoned and later executed. Ultimately, Israel was under judgment. God was not going to bless an Israeli push for freedom and independence. Not, at least, until it was time, which happened about 75 years ago.

I say that if a government begins to stand for evil, then resistance is necessary. Civil disobedience should be the lead-off, violence a last resort, but... a resort.