Works Complete Faith?

[romans113336]

More "Word games"

OF COURSE "my spirit" (small "s") is involved when I SIN as A CHRISTIAN!!! HIS SPIRIT isn't, since HE WON'T SIN. Problem solved.

So, this actually seems like you're agreeing with me : there is no condemnation for those who abide in Christ (Ro 8:1), but when sin is committed, there is condemnation (Ro 14:23), because they are not abiding in Christ.

Am I wrong in seeing that?

Romans 7 is a discussion of this (unless you believe the lie that Paul is speaking of his "unsaved" state in Chapter 7).

I do read it as referring to Jews "when we were in the flesh" (v5)--Christians are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit" (Ro 8:9).

 

[romans113336]

The supposed sin of eating or not eating something (that God already ruled you could eat) could get a person condemned to the lake of fire? Ridiculous.

"Sin--but especially a puny sin of eating--could lead to the lake of fire? Ridiculous!"

That's what you're saying.

Do you remember what Adam's sin was?

 

[cv5]

"Sin--but especially a puny sin of eating--could lead to the lake of fire? Ridiculous!"

That's what you're saying.

Do you remember what Adam's sin was?

That God already ruled you could eat. You hard of hearing?

 

[romans113336]

That God already ruled you could eat. You hard of hearing?

It doesn't matter if God says you can eat it--if you don't have the faith to eat it, God hasn't given you the faith, and you eat it doubting, you have sinned and are condemned. It literally uses the words "destroy your brother" and "destroy the work of God" when you cause someone to be encouraged, against their conscience, to eat things they do not believe they can eat.

"Let your yes be yes and your no be no--anything beyond this is of the evil one."

If someone eats, or does anything, with doubt, they are working with the evil one.
They ought to be walking in faith, instead.

 

[cv5]

So, this actually seems like you're agreeing with me : there is no condemnation for those who abide in Christ (Ro 8:1), but when sin is committed, there is condemnation (Ro 14:23), because they are not abiding in Christ.

Ridiculous. We are forgiven NOT condemned to eternal death in the lake of fire. Forgiven of every sin, all of them, past present and future.

What are you some kind of hyper-Armenian where you can lose and gain salvation a trillion times?

 

[cv5]

It doesn't matter if God says you can eat it--if you don't have the faith to eat it, God hasn't given you the faith, and you eat it doubting, you have sinned and are condemned. It literally uses the words "destroy your brother" and "destroy the work of God" when you cause someone to be encouraged, against their conscience, to eat things they do not believe they can eat.

"Let your yes be yes and your no be no--anything beyond this is of the evil one."

If someone eats, or does anything, with doubt, they are working with the evil one.
They ought to be walking in faith, instead.

Your idea that Romans 14 is about Christians on the precipice of being cast into hell is absolutely patently absurd. Simply outrageous.

 

[romans113336]

Ridiculous. We are forgiven NOT condemned

Your problem is with Paul, not me, who teaches you are "condemned" when you "sin".
You don't like these words because of your prior commitments to doctrines that do not square with Scripture.
You are condemning me for believing Scripture.
Do you realize that?

to eternal death in the lake of fire.

Who said Ro 14:23 means "you are condemned to eternal death in the lake of fire if you sin one time"?
I never said that.
My point is simply that James 2 is teaching this selfsame thing: Christians are to walk in faith not merely have faith and there is an ongoing judgment and justification that relies on walking in faith whereby God's righteousness not our own is being revealed (Ro 1:5).

What are you some kind of hyper-Armenian where you can lose and gain salvation a trillion times?

As I've said, our salvation is compared to that of the Jews from Egypt--and, yet, they fell under God's wrath and forfeited the promise, because they sinned after having been saved (1 Co 9:27, 1 Co 10).

 

[romans113336]

Your idea that Romans 14 is about Christians on the precipice of being cast into hell is absolutely patently absurd. Simply outrageous.

I never said that, I merely said Ro 14:23 and Ja 2 are saying the same thing: Christians are to walk in faith and if they do not they are not justified but condemned.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

So, this actually seems like you're agreeing with me : there is no condemnation for those who abide in Christ (Ro 8:1), but when sin is committed, there is condemnation (Ro 14:23), because they are not abiding in Christ.

1 John 1:8,9 - If we CONFESS our sin (as Christians), then Jesus is our advocate.

I do read it as referring to Jews "when we were in the flesh" (v5)--Christians are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit" (Ro 8:9).

However our "FLESH" IS STILL THERE, and the process of "Sanctification/Maturity" works to enable us to progressivly "Mortify the flesh" so that as time goes on it loses control, and is "destroyed (rendered inneffective Rom 6:6)

 

[timemeddler]

It isn't about seeking those things, it's about the other part--the "doing good" part.
What Christian doesn't "do good"? Have you read 1 Co? Rv 2, 3? Ro 8:12,13?

poor wording on my part, I meant idealy all christians should seek those things, backsliders are called to repent.

If you aren't in the category of those who receive eternal life... eh... you're going to die. If that's "merely rewards and disciplines, not an issue of eternal life", that is quite odd.

Rewards and disciplines are something at judgment, assuming you've accepted Christ. So I'm not sure what you mean,

Yes, the Jewish Christians were looking down their noses at the Gentile Christians.
Paul says "God shows no partiality, like you, but each will be judged by his deeds, and whoever is a doer of good will be justified."
That's my point: justification depends on doing good on that Day--and it seems the same is the case, on account of Ro 14:5,23, in this life. In other words, Christians, yes, are justified by the righteousness of faith, and, also, if they are not walking in faith, but are doing things they doubt, they are condemned (the opposite of justified).


Some of the Jews were unfaithful, but that hasn't prevented God from fulfilling His Word to the remnant through Christ Jesus.


Yes, we are justified freely by His grace, and, also, Ro 11:17-23, if we do not continue in that kindness, we can be cut off, as Ro 14:23 says, we can be condemned if we do not walk in faith.

I think I see what you mean, don't see much to disagree about here, my main concern is basically since we can't be perfect, we just have to do our best, but since our best will never be good enough, see why this worries me?

 

[romans113336]

1 John 1:8,9 - If we CONFESS our sin (as Christians), then Jesus is our advocate.

Are you agreeing with the aforementioned or not?

However our "FLESH" IS STILL THERE, and the process of "Sanctification/Maturity" works to enable us to progressivly "Mortify the flesh" so that as time goes on it loses control, and is "destroyed (rendered inneffective Rom 6:6)

Paul says Romans 7 was about him (a Jewish Christian) and his audience (Jewish Christians), before, "when we were in the flesh" (Ro 7:5)--and therefore Romans 7 cannot be about Christians, since Christians are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit" (Ro 8:9).

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

"Sin--but especially a puny sin of eating--could lead to the lake of fire? Ridiculous!"

Unfortunately there's James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

God's criteria is ABSOLUTE PREFECTION (found only in Jesus).

 

[romans113336]

Unfortunately there's James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Show me one time I said we were "under Law".

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Show me one time I said we were "under Law".

If you're NOT under the law, then no problem. Born agan folks are DEAD to the law, and not effected by it, consequently dietary issues aren't an issue (Rom 14 goes into this in detail). SIN is still possible for the Christian, and includes whatever you CAN"T DO IN FAITH.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Are you agreeing with the aforementioned or not?


Paul says Romans 7 was about him (a Jewish Christian) and his audience (Jewish Christians), before, "when we were in the flesh" (Ro 7:5)--and therefore Romans 7 cannot be about Christians, since Christians are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit" (Ro 8:9).

But the "FLESH" is still there big as life, and it's up to the Christian, moving in the Spirit, to crucify it.

 

[romans113336]

poor wording on my part, I meant idealy all christians should seek those things, backsliders are called to repent.

Right. That's what, in my opinion, Ro 14:23 and Ja 2 are about--that Christians who do not walk by faith are "condemned", and they must return to keeping God's command, which is to believe on the Name of God's Son AND to love one another ("faith which works by love").

Rewards and disciplines are something at judgment, assuming you've accepted Christ. So I'm not sure what you mean,

He is warning the Jewish believers about their hypocrisy, saying that, irrespective their Jewishness, and their sneering at Gentile believers, those Gentile believers who are keeping the Law by the Spirit writing the Law on their hearts, and them obeying that working, will be justified at the judgment, and repaid with eternal life, whereas they, the Jewish believers, acting hypocritically, will be repaid not with eternal life but with damnation. This is not an issue of "rewards". It is an issue of justification and salvation--same as James 2 says ("Can such faith save him?").

I think I see what you mean, don't see much to disagree about here, my main concern is basically since we can't be perfect, we just have to do our best, but since our best will never be good enough, see why this worries me?

Yes, but that is not what I am getting at--I am merely establishing that Christians are to walk in faith, not merely have faith, and that there is no reason to wrangle with James 2, as if he is teaching contrary to Paul, since Paul, himself, teaches the very same thing.

 

[romans113336]

If you're NOT under the law, then no problem. Born agan folks are DEAD to the law, and not effected by it, consequently dietary issues aren't an issue (Rom 14 goes into this in detail). SIN is still possible for the Christian, and includes whatever you CAN"T DO IN FAITH.

I'm so sorry that we seem to not even be talking about the same topics.
I don't know how you are doing that.

 

[romans113336]

But the "FLESH" is still there big as life, and it's up to the Christian, moving in the Spirit, to crucify it.

That's not the issue--the issue is that Romans 7 is not about believers, but describes the life of a Jew under the Law prior to Christ.

 

[romans113336]

Ridiculous. We are forgiven NOT condemned to eternal death in the lake of fire. Forgiven of every sin, all of them, past present and future.

What are you some kind of hyper-Armenian where you can lose and gain salvation a trillion times?

whereby God's righteousness not our own is being revealed (Ro 1:5).

Correction: Ro 1:16

 

[cv5]

Right. That's what, in my opinion, Ro 14:23 and Ja 2 are about--that Christians who do not walk by faith are "condemned", and they must return to keeping God's command, which is to believe on the Name of God's Son AND to love one another ("faith which works by love").

Yup I was right. There is some kind of bizarre hyper-Armenian doctrine going down behind all of the bafflegab and bluster.

Believing and then unbelieving, salvation and then condemnation........flipping on and off like a strobe light.

Time for the ignore button bye-bye.