Works Complete Faith?

[cv5]

Well....its a good time to brush up on the book of James. The second (maybe first) most misunderstood book in all the NT no doubt.

https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/52919654562847/
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/92212148263/
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/83112127523/

Chronister absolutely destroys the commonly held erroneous view.
You need to FF the first lecture by at least 50%.

To my knowledge, nobody here on CC has yet to correctly exegete James ch 2.
You are basically dealing with love of wealth materialistic unbelieving pharisaism vs love of God faith based believing.
The pharisaic frauds LOVE their wealth and DO NOT in fact edify the Body with it.......they hoard wealth to themselves.

A perfect complement to the rest of the Bible as it speaks to this matter.

 

[cv5]

Chronister absolutely destroys the commonly held erroneous view.
You need to FF the first lecture by at least 50%.

To my knowledge, nobody here on CC has yet to correctly exegete James ch 2.
You are basically dealing with love of wealth materialistic unbelieving pharisaism vs love of God faith based believing.
The pharisaic frauds LOVE their wealth and DO NOT in fact edify the Body with it.......they hoard wealth to themselves.

A perfect complement to the rest of the Bible as it speaks to this matter.

BTW.....nowhere in this chapter does it say that you need works to be saved. Nowhere.

 

[romans113336]

James 2:
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In all James 2, I never saw the word "true faith" or "false faith", only "living faith" and "dead faith".
He compares faith to a body, which can be living (complete, with its spirit) or dead (incomplete, without its spirit), but never mentions a true or false body.
A dead body is not a false body--dead bodies are real--it's just incomplete.

Well, it just so happens that that is James's entire point: It's good you have faith, but stop being fooled into thinking that that's all God expects of you. Even a demon has that half down, but they don't also do good works--of course you don't want to be like a demon! God wants you to not only have faith, but also to walk in faith--many ancients had faith, and it was when their faith determined their steps their faith and justification was completed, but if your faith doesn't guide your steps, you're walking not after the spirit, but after the flesh, the wide road, and are condemned not justified as Saint Paul says.

The only reason a reasonable person would not accept this plain reading is a prior commitment to a misinterpretation of Paul, who is difficult to understand--NOT that they are heretical, because even a little knowledge of Paul is helpful, but it's also confusing.

 

[evyaniy]

2 Timothy 2:19

Nevertheless the foundation of EL(Theos, Elohim, YAH, God) stands sure, having this seal, The Adonai knows them that are His. And, Let every one that names the Name of Messiah depart from iniquity.

 

[romans113336]

Turnaround is fair play. You get what you give. Suck it up, buttercup.

1. "Slander is good, as long as it's revenge." Another great exemplar of the error of "faith alone" speaks--contrary to Christ, Who says "Do not repay evil".

2. Show me where I lied about a user to win an argument rather than addressing their argument head-on.

 

[romans113336]

The theme of meditation for me this week has emerged as a consideration of the answer to "what is the condemnation of the devil?" and a tributary I've come upon is "what is an 'unclean spirit'?"

It seems your view is inverted from the conclusion that I've reached, that either justification or condemnation will determine that which one walks in.

I'm trying my best to track with the New Testament. Are you?

 

[romans113336]

BTW.....nowhere in this chapter does it say that you need works to be saved. Nowhere.

Oops!

"Can that faith SAVE him?"

 

[romans113336]

Amen! In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.

If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) James certainly does address true and false faith.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Nowhere do we see "true faith" and "false faith" in James's epistle.

He compares faith to a body--it's either complete (with its spirit) or incomplete (without its spirit). He doesn't say "Dead faith is like a mannequin--a false body!" A dead body is not a false body, a mannequin, it's an incomplete body. 🤣

That's exactly his point about faith--you can't just have faith, you must also walk in faith.

Simple.

 

[mailmandan]

Nowhere do we see "true faith" and "false faith" in James's epistle.

He compares faith to a body--it's either complete (with its spirit) or incomplete (without its spirit). He doesn't say "Dead faith is like a mannequin--a false body!" A dead body is not a false body, a mannequin, it's an incomplete body. 🤣

That's exactly his point about faith--you can't just have faith, you must also walk in faith.

Simple.

Says/claims (key word) to have faith = empty profession of faith/dead faith in James 2:14.

In regard to James 2:26, I never said false body and the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[studentoftheword]

https://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html

Genuine faith in Christ, James says, will produce a changed life and result in good works (James 2:20–26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his or her life.

The works are an outward show of genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26)—and it’s that outward show that “justifies” the believer in the sight of other people.
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https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/80-20/the-characteristics-of-false-and-true-faith
The Characteristics of False and True Faith

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https://www.gotquestions.org/faith-vs-works.html

Works are the product of faith. Those who have true faith in Jesus Christ will be “eager to do what is good” (Titus 2:14). John the Baptist called for “fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8). The book of James emphasizes the nature of true saving faith as that which results in good works: “Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead” and “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead” (James 2:17, 26). Grace through faith saves, and that faith is manifest in works. If someone claims to have faith yet exhibits no good works, his or her faith is “dead,” or nonexistent.

The faith vs. works debate, then, is really no debate at all. Both faith and works are integral parts of the Christian life. Biblically, faith is the cause of salvation, while works are the evidence of it.

 

[romans113336]

That is, whether one believes they are justified or that they are condemned, whether clean or unclean, that is the spirit by which they will walk.

The Pharisees thought they were justified, and clean, but Jesus said they were like whitewashed tombs, full of dead men's bones (death is the most important factor in uncleanness in the OT), so I'm not sure why you would say that.

 

[romans113336]

Says/claims (key word) to have faith = empty profession of faith/dead faith in James 2:14.

In regard to James 2:26, I never said false body and the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

James doesn't say "Dead faith is like a mannequin--a false body!" A dead body is not a false body, a mannequin, it's an incomplete body. 🤣

That's exactly his point about faith--you can't just have faith, you must also walk in faith.

Simple.

 

[romans113336]

https://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html

Genuine faith in Christ, James says, will produce a changed life and result in good works (James 2:20–26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his or her life.

The works are an outward show of genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26)—and it’s that outward show that “justifies” the believer in the sight of other people.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/80-20/the-characteristics-of-false-and-true-faith
The Characteristics of False and True Faith

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.gotquestions.org/faith-vs-works.html

Works are the product of faith. Those who have true faith in Jesus Christ will be “eager to do what is good” (Titus 2:14). John the Baptist called for “fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8). The book of James emphasizes the nature of true saving faith as that which results in good works: “Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead” and “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead” (James 2:17, 26). Grace through faith saves, and that faith is manifest in works. If someone claims to have faith yet exhibits no good works, his or her faith is “dead,” or nonexistent.

The faith vs. works debate, then, is really no debate at all. Both faith and works are integral parts of the Christian life. Biblically, faith is the cause of salvation, while works are the evidence of it.

No, the Corinthians had genuine faith but didn't walk in faith but after the flesh.

Hence, Paul says, "Purge out the old leaven for you are unleavened"--ie, walk according to the faith you have, and what that has done for you, spiritually, start being who you are.
They had faith. What happened to the good works automatically flowing from that? It's not reality. It's just nonsense for the "faith alone" crowd to continue misapprehending Paul, but never asking themselves, or showing curiosity, as to why their interpretations fall short and cannot be squared with all of Scripture.

If genuine faith produced good works automatically, Christians would never sin.

Also, your interpretation makes no sense of Ro 14:23, that a Christian who sins is condemned, not justified (and obviously can be forgiven)--that's actually the topic.

 

[romans113336]

2 Timothy 2:19

Nevertheless the foundation of EL(Theos, Elohim, YAH, God) stands sure, having this seal, The Adonai knows them that are His. And, Let every one that names the Name of Messiah depart from iniquity.

Please post on-topic.

If you are responding to the thread, please quote the thread, so that people know what you're addressing, otherwise, it's just messy/disorderly.

 

[romans113336]

Says/claims (key word) to have faith = empty profession of faith/dead faith in James 2:14.

In regard to James 2:26, I never said false body and the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

No one said the source of life was our works, but that someone can have life but not also walk in that.

Galatians 5
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 5
7Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

Matthew 25
24Finally, the servant who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Master, I knew that you are a hard man, reaping where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what belongs to you.’
26‘You wicked, lazy servant!’ replied his master. ‘You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27Then you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received it back with interest.
28Therefore take the talent from him and give it to the one who has ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30And throw that worthless servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

OBVIOUSLY!

Don't be like @cv5, who says, "I'm already saved, so I don't have to obey Christ--'Slander is good, as long as it's revenge', even though Christ says, 'Do not repay evil'! Who cares!? I'm saved!"

 

[romans113336]

Obviously something's wrong indeed. Jesus never knew these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 which means they were never saved. These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and not in Christ alone. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ - Romans 3:24-28; Philippians 3:9) was still stained with sin.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Instead of Lord, Lord, didn't WE, the correct answer for these many people in Matthew 7:22 would have been Lord, Lord, didn't YOU die for our sins, were buried and rise again the third day to provide for us eternal life? We trust in you alone as the all-sufficient means of our salvation.

In regard to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church) I read Matthew 7:22 and was astonished! I remember thinking to myself, these many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of the natural man who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works.

The OT instructs us, here, telling us that God permits false miracles in order to test His people (Deuteronomy 13), so Matthew 7 ought not to surprise anyone. Christ Himself said many would arise, working false miracles, misleading many.

Miracles and prophecies are all supernatural works, which prove nothing in themselves--the test is whether they are speaking according to God's Word, says Deuteronomy 13--which God permits to be done to test His people.
They are not works of righteousness. His objection to them is they are "lawless". Jesus is not against works of righteousness--He specifies that they are "ravening wolves" (looking to consume the sheep), that they are immoral, etc.

None of this should be surprising.

 

[romans113336]

Some Torah laws were merely to "remember" events that had taken place, works that had been done--eg, how you were saved/delivered from bondage in Egypt. That was one type of command to follow--to merely remember a work that had already been accomplished.

Some Torah laws are about things which were expected of them, things which they should do. That was another type of command to follow--to do good which had not already been done.

"Faith alone" people, therefore, do very well to follow the former type of NT command, remembering what was done for them at the Cross--where non-"Faith alone" tend to underemphasize this type of NT command, and overemphasize the latter type of NT command--but they do not acknowledge that there is another type of command, something that is expected of them, to not only have faith but to also walk in faith, to not only be unleavened but actually behave unleavened, to not only live in the Spirit but to also walk in the Spirit.

If I had to choose an error, I suppose I would prefer the error of "faith alone", but why should I choose an error, when I can simply acknowledge both types of commands are valid?

 

[studentoftheword]

That's exactly his point about faith--you can't just have faith, you must also walk in faith.

YOU are so WRONG ____Faith is a Substance ------Faith is your title deed ---your assurance to God's promises ------Faith bring your unseen hope into this Seen realm -------

NOTE :_---You need to get a grip and stop spouting your own Human understanding of what Faith is and isn't ----you are wrongly dividing the Word of truth ------and that is the Truth --------

HEBREWS 11 ---NKJB
By Faith We Understand
11 Now faith is the [a]substance of things hoped for, the [b]evidence of things not seen.

I say ---understanding what Substance means is needed here -------

Strong's Concordance
hupostasis: a support, substance, steadiness, hence assurance

a support, substance, steadiness, assurance
Usage: (lit: an underlying), (a) confidence, assurance, (b) a giving substance (or reality) to, or a guaranteeing, (c) substance, reality.


Hebrews 11----- AMP BIBLE

The Triumphs of Faith
11 Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].

I say ------when you walk in Faith -----your walking in Confidence and Assurance That what God says in His word will come to pass ------

No, the Corinthians had genuine faith but didn't walk in faith but after the flesh.

No------- they didn't Have Genuine Faith -----they had False Faith and were Disguising themselves as Christ Apostles ------so again you need to do what the Scripture says ----In Wisdom Get Understanding--Proverbs 4:7

 

[romans113336]

YOU are so WRONG ____Faith is a Substance ------Faith is your title deed ---your assurance to God's promises ------Faith bring your unseen hope into this Seen realm -------

NOTE :_---You need to get a grip and stop spouting your own Human understanding of what Faith is and isn't ----you are wrongly dividing the Word of truth ------and that is the Truth --------

HEBREWS 11 ---NKJB
By Faith We Understand
11 Now faith is the [a]substance of things hoped for, the [b]evidence of things not seen.

I say ---understanding what Substance means is needed here -------

Strong's Concordance
hupostasis: a support, substance, steadiness, hence assurance

a support, substance, steadiness, assurance
Usage: (lit: an underlying), (a) confidence, assurance, (b) a giving substance (or reality) to, or a guaranteeing, (c) substance, reality.


Hebrews 11----- AMP BIBLE

The Triumphs of Faith
11 Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].

I say ------when you walk in Faith -----your walking in Confidence and Assurance That what God says in His word will come to pass ------




No------- they didn't Have Genuine Faith -----they had False Faith and were Disguising themselves as Christ Apostles ------so again you need to do what the Scripture says ----In Wisdom Get Understanding--Proverbs 4:7

View attachment 256305

Sorry, Paul said they had true faith in Christ.

1 Corinthians 5
7Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

So, "Christ" is their "Passover Lamb", and they are "unleavened", but they were not behaving that way (rather, they were sinning), and they were to "purge out the old leaven".

Simple.

Do you know why you don't want to believe the Scripture? Because of a conflict of interest. You are wedded to the idea of "faith alone", so you cannot accept Scripture. Isn't that sad?

Now, I'm not saying you don't know God, or are a heretic who promotes lawlessness, I'm just saying you're "inaccurate" in your perceptions and assertions.

 

[cv5]

Oops!

"Can that faith SAVE him?"

Jas 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man SAY he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

A false profession of faith....OBVIOUSLY. You missed that as well as the entire thrust of the chapter.
Did you listen to Chronister? No. Yet you prattle on incoherently about that which you do not understand.

James 2 speaks NOTHING to losing your salvation OR salvation predicated upon works. Absolutely nothing.
Rather, it speaks to a FALSE profession of faith by pharisaical faithless and wealthy apostates who CARE NOTHING for the Body BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT A PART OF IT!