Israel Declares War

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Smoke

Smoke

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ZNP said:
My feeling is that it is foolish to think some law will protect you during war. All you have to do is look at human history to think that laws and codes of conduct are often ignored during war.

Instead I feel everyone needs to realize that "as you have done it will be done unto you".

If you think that Hiroshima was an acceptable action to take then don't complain when nukes fall on your city.
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Right, so if we universally agree that the US murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, then it must be okay if that is done to us as well. Correct?

I know you're trying to dissect it into "discriminate"/"indiscriminate" murdering... but I don't think you were being "discriminate" when you murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Do you?
 
ZNP

ZNP

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ThereRoseaLamb said:
Hiroshima was an answer to a terrorist attack on American soil.
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Definition of Terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Pearl Harbor was a surprise attack, but it was not against civilians and since Japan had broken off diplomatic relations with the US was not considered unlawful. Sneaky, underhanded, yes, terrorism, no.
 
Smoke

Smoke

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ThereRoseaLamb said:
Absolutely not!! It is mind boggling that you don't know the difference. The Nazi's intended to wipe out the Jews. These two things do not correlate. Hiroshima was an answer to a terrorist attack on American soil.
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I agree the acts not equal. How they are the same is that soldiers on both sides "followed orders" which led to the murder of a multitude of innocent civilians. Nazis are responsible for millions... Americans are "only" responsible for murdering hundreds of thousands innocent civilians. I'm not sure how you can't see the common denominator honestly.



ThereRoseaLamb said:
We just have a totally different world view. I can't wrap my head around yours. Sorry.
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It appears so. I just hope you don't think I'm comparing Americans to Nazis. I'm comparing mindsets and ideologies.
 
NightTwister

NightTwister

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Smoke said:
Continue please... I'm trying to link how the correlation between the sentiments across different generations is debunked. We both agree that the atrocities are different. They also don't need to be equal to show that people view atrocities differently today than they did nearly a century ago.

Let me ask directly, why did you object to my belief that if we compared American sentiments of racial slavery in 1860 to sentiments in 2023, we would find more people opposing it? Do you disagree?
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I don't disagree with this statement. When you try to compare it to other historical occurrences that aren't the same, that's where we disagree.
 
ZNP

ZNP

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Smoke said:
Right, so if we universally agree that the US murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, then it must be okay if that is done to us as well. Correct?

I know you're trying to dissect it into "discriminate"/"indiscriminate" murdering... but I don't think you were being "discriminate" when you murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Do you?
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Why are you using the word OK? Are you saying that Hiroshima was "OK"? Even people who feel it was necessary view it as a necessary evil.

I feel that it is "OK" to defend yourself from attack. Hiroshima was not a defense against attack, it was a way to end the war. By the time Hiroshima happened Japan's navy and air force had been all but eliminated. The threat of attack on any US land was completely hypothetical.

The only "justification" for it was that it resulted in fewer American deaths. I understand that calculation, but I cannot see how anyone would describe incinerating thousands of people in this bomb as "OK".

To answer your question I believe that every action results in an equal and opposite reaction. This is why forgiveness is so powerful. I believe Hiroshima was a seed. Every world leader that considers nuking the US will determine that it is OK to nuke them because of Hiroshima.
 
NightTwister

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Smoke said:
Right, so if we universally agree that the US murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, then it must be okay if that is done to us as well. Correct?

I know you're trying to dissect it into "discriminate"/"indiscriminate" murdering... but I don't think you were being "discriminate" when you murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Do you?
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False premise. We did not "murder" hundreds of thousands of "innocent" civilians.
 
Smoke

Smoke

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To be clear, the atomic bomb is not the bomb one would use if you were wanting to be discriminate. I'm curious to hear an argument that it somehow IS the ideal bomb for discriminately killing.
 
Smoke

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ZNP said:
Why are you using the word OK? Are you saying that Hiroshima was "OK"? Even people who feel it was necessary view it as a necessary evil.

I feel that it is "OK" to defend yourself from attack. Hiroshima was not a defense against attack, it was a way to end the war. By the time Hiroshima happened Japan's navy and air force had been all but eliminated. The threat of attack on any US land was completely hypothetical.

The only "justification" for it was that it resulted in fewer American deaths. I understand that calculation, but I cannot see how anyone would describe incinerating thousands of people in this bomb as "OK".

To answer your question I believe that every action results in an equal and opposite reaction. This is why forgiveness is so powerful. I believe Hiroshima was a seed. Every world leader that considers nuking the US will determine that it is OK to nuke them because of Hiroshima.
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Because "okay" means you're justified. You said it yourself in your statement... As you stated: "as you have done it will be done unto you".
 
ZNP

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Smoke said:
How many innocent Japanese civilians did we murder then?
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We do not use the word "murder" when describing people who are killed in war. The premise is that the soldiers are fighting to defend their homeland and that is justifiable. Murder generally carries the connotation of a homicide that was not self defense or in some way justifiable.
 
ZNP

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Smoke said:
Because "okay" means you're justified. You said it yourself in your statement... As you stated: "as you have done it will be done unto you".
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No, OK does not mean justified.

There are many homicides which are justified, man had a knife, he was a raving lunatic, etc. But that doesn't mean that it was "OK". Any non sociopath would not feel "OK" after killing another person. Obviously there is a spectrum, if the person was trying specifically to kill you and would have killed you had you not killed them first you would have less regret than if it was just some drugged out lunatic in the street who was acting threatening.

Also, "as you have done it will be done unto you" does not mean justified either. If you sow to your flesh you reap of the flesh. That doesn't make you justified, it simply is righteous judgement, a fair punishment.
 
2ndTimeIsTheCharm

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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Ted01 said:
This post amazes me! It's like the total opposite of the reality of the historical accounts?
Can I ask where you are getting your history from?

Here's a Jewish source:
Jewish & Non-Jewish Population of Israel/Palestine (1517-Present) (jewishvirtuallibrary.org)
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You should go by what the Bible says though. So in God's view, that land had always belonged to His people.

Deuteronomy 30:5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.

Jeremiah 24:5 “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians. 6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them.

Ezekiel 28:25 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. 26 They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.’”

(Verse 26 is why I think God allows wars against Israel which they win time and time again by His Hand to prove to them that He is the Lord their God.)

Amos 9:14
and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.

“They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the Lord your God.

Remember that all of creation is His - we just live in it. So if He thinks this land belongs to the Jews, then that's what it is.


🍉
 
Smoke

Smoke

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ZNP said:
We do not use the word "murder" when describing people who are killed in war. The premise is that the soldiers are fighting to defend their homeland and that is justifiable. Murder generally carries the connotation of a homicide that was not self defense or in some way justifiable.
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So Hamas didn't murder innocent civilians because they are at war with Israel? I mean... two things can be true. Hamas is at war with Israel, but it's also true they are murdering innocent Israeli civilians.

Dropping a nuclear bomb and saying you're sincerely attempting to only "kill" military forces and not the dense civilian population surrounding it is disingenous. Why do we have to lie to ourselves? There is no justification to "kill" civilians with such an indiscriminate nuclear weapon.

If you want to blow up a port, do so with a traditional bomb... but a nuclear weapon? It's a disingenuous distinction and you're intelligent enough to know that.
 
T

Ted01

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2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
You should go by what the Bible says though. So in God's view, that land had always belonged to His people.

Deuteronomy 30:5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.

Jeremiah 24:5 “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians. 6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them.

Ezekiel 28:25 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. 26 They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.’”

(Verse 26 is why I think God allows wars against Israel which they win time and time again by His Hand to prove to them that He is the Lord their God.)

Amos 9:14
and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.

“They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the Lord your God.

Remember that all of creation is His - we just live in it. So if He thinks this land belongs to the Jews, then that's what it is.


🍉
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I don't want to derail this thread but appreciate that many see it the same as you do.
I'm not so convinced of that.
 
T

ThereRoseaLamb

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T

Ted01

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Smoke said:
So Hamas didn't murder innocent civilians because they are at war with Israel? I mean... two things can be true. Hamas is at war with Israel, but it's also true they are murdering innocent Israeli civilians.

Dropping a nuclear bomb and saying you're sincerely attempting to only "kill" military forces and not the dense civilian population surrounding it is ingenuine. Why do we have to lie to ourselves? There is no justification to "kill" civilians with such an indiscriminate nuclear weapon.

If you want to blow up a port, do so with a traditional bomb... but a nuclear weapon. It's a disingenuous distinction and you're intelligent enough to know that.
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To be fair though, the US did warn both the Japanese government and dropped leaflets for the civilians to flee the upcoming bombing... (though only vague references to the bomb)
 
Smoke

Smoke

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I suppose I am going to order a Tsar Bomba (biggest/most powerful nuclear bomb ever created) next time I have a pest control problem. "Sorry if I blow up my entire state, I was discriminately trying to kill the cockroaches and crickets in my house."
 
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