Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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Acts 20:28 - Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
(I don't follow the question immediately preceding).
Well okay, but to have true belief is not within the power of man to produce or manufacture of himself - it comes as a gift from God, only to certain people whom He had so chosen for it, by His grace alone. Observe:
Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[2Th 2:13 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Well okay, but to have true belief is not within the power of man to produce or manufacture of himself - it comes as a gift from God, only to certain people whom He had so chosen for it, by His grace alone. Observe:
Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[2Th 2:13 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
You're right, we're going in circles. While I was away I've been chewing on this and have a couple of ideas. While I get that put together, how about a different subject but is somewhat related. You actually mention it in this post. I'm unaware of baptism being "baptism of the spirit". I posed this topic/question in another thread. The one I posed it to has not responded to me in a few days. If you would like to, here is the challenge I posed to him. This is the only way I know to link.
https://christianchat.com/threads/gods-one-baptism-for-his-body.197660/post-5175106
https://christianchat.com/threads/gods-one-baptism-for-his-body.197660/post-5175106
I'll post them here too. If you have any questions, let me know and I'll try to clarify.
[1Co 12:13 KJV]
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
[Jhn 1:33 KJV]
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
[Act 11:16-17 KJV]
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
[1Pe 3:21 KJV] 21
The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Water baptism is symbolic with no spiritual efficacy of itself. It should be done but only insofar as it is just a demonstration of the spiritual
[1Co 12:13 KJV]
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
[Jhn 1:33 KJV]
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
[Act 11:16-17 KJV]
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
[1Pe 3:21 KJV] 21
The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Water baptism is symbolic with no spiritual efficacy of itself. It should be done but only insofar as it is just a demonstration of the spiritual
I agree, it’s totally our point of view. It’s crazy we can read the same words and get something different. So I thought about a couple of things. Trying to not focus on words in passages but the overall thinking. Here is one thing I was thinking about. I have forgotten the other one for now but I'm sure it will come to me. Thanks for your comments on spiritual baptism. I look forward to it.
Here’s the first one. I hope I can explain it so it makes sense. These are examples of how I understand Col. 1:21-23; 1 Cor. 15:1-2.
This isn't a passage but works. I was thinking about this as I was getting ready for work. God has blessed me with health and abilities to work and provide for myself, my family and others. He gives us life and He provides everything that we need physically but we have to do something to continue to live. We live if we continue to breathe, if we continue to eat and we can even end our own God given life. Am I sustaining my life on my own, absolutely not. I can only do so by God’s grace and His provisions. God sustains my life, not me. Without God’s grace, I couldn’t even take the next breath. So God has given me life and sustains my life IF I go to work to provide for myself and others.
Another example would be Noah. Noah and his family were saved by God’s grace but he had to do something. God warned Noah of an impending destruction (judgement). He providing him with the message that would save him and all who would listen (gospel). Noah respond to the message, by building the ark, in order to be saved (baptism).
Another example, Isaac. God waited till Abraham was 100 years old before He gave Abraham a son. He did so, so there would be ZERO doubt that Isaac was born by the power of God. 100% from God, but did that mean Abraham did nothing, no. Abraham had to do something in order for the son of promise to be born.
One more. God sent Moses to deliver His people. Before God would allow Moses to lead His people, he had to get in good covenant standing with God. Because he wasn’t at the time, God was going to kill him. He had to do something to prevent from breaking God’s covenant and being killed by God.
Here’s the first one. I hope I can explain it so it makes sense. These are examples of how I understand Col. 1:21-23; 1 Cor. 15:1-2.
This isn't a passage but works. I was thinking about this as I was getting ready for work. God has blessed me with health and abilities to work and provide for myself, my family and others. He gives us life and He provides everything that we need physically but we have to do something to continue to live. We live if we continue to breathe, if we continue to eat and we can even end our own God given life. Am I sustaining my life on my own, absolutely not. I can only do so by God’s grace and His provisions. God sustains my life, not me. Without God’s grace, I couldn’t even take the next breath. So God has given me life and sustains my life IF I go to work to provide for myself and others.
Another example would be Noah. Noah and his family were saved by God’s grace but he had to do something. God warned Noah of an impending destruction (judgement). He providing him with the message that would save him and all who would listen (gospel). Noah respond to the message, by building the ark, in order to be saved (baptism).
Another example, Isaac. God waited till Abraham was 100 years old before He gave Abraham a son. He did so, so there would be ZERO doubt that Isaac was born by the power of God. 100% from God, but did that mean Abraham did nothing, no. Abraham had to do something in order for the son of promise to be born.
One more. God sent Moses to deliver His people. Before God would allow Moses to lead His people, he had to get in good covenant standing with God. Because he wasn’t at the time, God was going to kill him. He had to do something to prevent from breaking God’s covenant and being killed by God.
a Verse like this is rather "direct" and "to the point."
10. "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and I abide in his love."
Look at this Compound Fracture of a CAUSE and EFFECT Reaction:
here is the Condition: If you keep my commands,
and if you meet the Condition: you will remain in my love
So, if you [[do not]] keep Jesus Commands...you no longer remain in Jesus' Love?
how does OSAS work, if you don't do Jesus' Commands and no longer have His Love?
10. "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and I abide in his love."
Look at this Compound Fracture of a CAUSE and EFFECT Reaction:
here is the Condition: If you keep my commands,
and if you meet the Condition: you will remain in my love
So, if you [[do not]] keep Jesus Commands...you no longer remain in Jesus' Love?
how does OSAS work, if you don't do Jesus' Commands and no longer have His Love?
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And you would be misleading others. Faith as a fruit of the Spirit is in those who are ALREADY saved. But obviously you do not believe God when He says that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel). You literally negate the value of the Gospel and the order in which the Holy Spirit is given.
That is not even the issue. The issue is "If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you will be saved". That's what Jesus said, so the issue for you is do you believe Him? Everything else comes later. And as you can see, Roger wants to twist everything to fit his false theology. It is amazing how man-made doctrines have precedence over Scripture.
Yes. A Christian (saved, whether Elect or Free Will) will do that.
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
- Philippians 2:9-13
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
- Philippians 2:9-13
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Wrong. You are misleading others because you are unable to comprehend salvation.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Romans 10:17
New King James Version
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The comes by, in essence means ACTIVATED. It comes out from the INSIDE.
Hearing the Gospel activates the faith already in you, placed there by God.
“comes”
◄ 1537. ek or ex ►
New King James Version
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The comes by, in essence means ACTIVATED. It comes out from the INSIDE.
Hearing the Gospel activates the faith already in you, placed there by God.
“comes”
◄ 1537. ek or ex ►
Strong's Concordance
ek or ex: from, from out ofOriginal Word: ἐκ, ἐξ
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: ek or ex
Phonetic Spelling: (ek)
Definition: from, from out of
Usage: from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards.
OUR part is to ADD to our faith the following.
So the faith is ALREADY there. We don’t obtain it. God gifted it to us. Just as Ephesians. 2 tells us.
2 Peter 1:5-8 KJVAnd beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: ek or ex
Phonetic Spelling: (ek)
Definition: from, from out of
Usage: from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards.
OUR part is to ADD to our faith the following.
So the faith is ALREADY there. We don’t obtain it. God gifted it to us. Just as Ephesians. 2 tells us.
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