The Young Messiah

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evyaniy

Guest
#81
Hebrews 5

7 He(the Son), in the days of His flesh, having offered up prayers and petitions with strong crying and tears to Him(the Father) Who was able to save Him from death(Psalm 119), and having been heard for His reverent fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 Having been made perfect, He became to all of those who obey Him the Author of eternal salvation,
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,194
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#82
He did it as a Man. He had to do it as a Man to save us and reverse what Adam had done.
amen he God became a man fully and accomplished everything restored of a man to live and not die and then he returned to his glory of the heavens

Mans place is inherant from creation that we are fully subject to Gods rule yet we have the dominion as stewards meant to rule in the ways of God over all the earth

Jesus the lord saw from heaven that we were lost because there was no man To intercede on our behalf no sinless man to approach God and stone for our sins by mediation ( there was no perfect priest )

When the lord saw this it displeased him and so he announced that he would come and become the perfect man to intercede and save us

“Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor:


therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

…So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:15-17, 19-21‬ ‭

After Jesus accomplished the life of a perfect man making his own self subject being fully the form of a man on earth he was glorofied as in the beginning

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

while jesus was on earth before he rose from the dead and apart from the transfiguration , he was fully in the form of one of us “ the son of God “ in full and total subjection was Jesus humanity to the spirit of God within him

after he was glorified returning to the glory of the most high having revealed himself to humanity once for all by the gospel but now he has created an intercessor that can save us being worthy when there was no man before now there is an intercessor and advocate

“Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We couldnt be saved without this part still

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when he looked down and saw there was no man no intercessor he came and became the perfect man we needed able to intercede and mediate relationship for all Men who are simply imperfect

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is not two seperate people but God of heaven who became a man in order to save mankind from sin and death interceding between God and man to reconcile man and gods broken relationship through adams rule
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,054
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#83
His body wasn't impervious to injury. If it were, he could not have been killed as he was.
That is a massively mistaken belief. In fact Jesus Christ was not killed!
Jesus Christ is Yahweh of the Old Testament. Almighty omnipotent omniscient God.
He's simply cannot be killed by any external force or person.


The biblical truth is that Jesus had to give up his life no man could kill him. Not the Romans not the Jews not the gentiles......nobody. Not Satan nor any Angelic being.

In fact one of the major reasons why the (eventual) multitudes of Roman soldiers believed that He is in fact the Son of God.....is because word got around that they simply could not kill Him. Nothing worked. The beatings the scourgings the crucifying. I think the Romans first tried to beat him to death and it was a total fail.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#84
That is a massively mistaken belief. In fact Jesus Christ was not killed!
Jesus Christ is Yahweh of the Old Testament. Almighty omnipotent omniscient God.
He's simply cannot be killed by any external force or person.


The biblical truth is that Jesus had to give up his life no man could kill him. Not the Romans not the Jews not the gentiles......nobody. Not Satan nor any Angelic being.

In fact one of the major reasons why the (eventual) multitudes of Roman soldiers believed that He is in fact the Son of God.....is because word got around that they simply could not kill Him. Nothing worked. The beatings the scourgings the crucifying. I think the Romans first tried to beat him to death and it was a total fail.
He was the slain Lamb. Yes, He took a lot of punishment before being nailed to and raised on the cross. When He was flogged they whipped Him with Roman flagrum whips which have 3 leather thongs with metal balls on the end and glass fragments in the leather. He was whipped by two men, one who was tall and one who was shorter. They know this by the wounds that are all over His body and apparent on the Shroud of Turin.

He had to push up with His feet and pull with His arms on the nails that held Him in place, to be able to breathe while on the cross. The blood from His wounds that appears on the Shroud is bright red. That indicates He suffered severe trauma that caused His blood to have high bilirubin content which means He was not getting enough oxygen. He died from what was done to Him and maybe did not have strength left to continue to push and pull up to try to continue to breathe.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#85
Evidently the written record shows otherwise. Eve was tempted by the three main "lusts" but Adam was not deceived, yet sinned. That is all we can say.
Where does it say Eve was tempted by the three main lusts? On the contrary, three very good and healthy appetites of Eve were hijacked to deceive her into sin.: her appreciation for delicious tasting foods, her appreciation of beauty and her desire for wisdom. She had used all of these before the fall without their use producing sin. None of these were in themselves internal sinful aspects of her nature. In fact, God had built these into her nature and God had judged them to be very good.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,054
8,377
113
#86
Evidently the written record shows otherwise. Eve was tempted by the three main "lusts" but Adam was not deceived, yet sinned. That is all we can say.
Adam sinned in a calculated gambit.....to save Eve.
And it worked. Because Adam knew His God.

Both confessed their sin at their trial and were aquitted and were "covered" by The Blood. Neither was condemned.

Satan was identified as the villian and condemned.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
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#87
He was the slain Lamb. Yes, He took a lot of punishment before being nailed to and raised on the cross. When He was flogged they whipped Him with Roman flagrum whips which have 3 leather thongs with metal balls on the end and glass fragments in the leather. He was whipped by two men, one who was tall and one who was shorter. They know this by the wounds that are all over His body and apparent on the Shroud of Turin.

He had to push up with His feet and pull with His arms on the nails that held Him in place, to be able to breathe while on the cross. The blood from His wounds that appears on the Shroud is bright red. That indicates He suffered severe trauma that caused His blood to have high bilirubin content which means He was not getting enough oxygen. He died from what was done to Him and maybe did not have strength left to continue to push and pull up to try to continue to breathe.
He spoke from the cross with a loud voice.
when He delivered His own spirit He bowed his head, indicating that it had been lifted up.

He was in complete control of all this: no one takes His life. He lays it down, to take it up again.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,054
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#88
He spoke from the cross with a loud voice.
Several instances of this phenomenon. Impossible to do if you are a mere man suffocating to death.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#89
Several instances of this phenomenon. Impossible to do if you are a mere man suffocating to death.
are you saying that His injuries and blood loss and being on the cross for so long and His physical exertion to remain alive during that time had nothing to do with His death? oh, okay.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#90
Psalm 22

14 I am poured out like water.
All My bones are out of joint.
My heart is like wax.
It is melted within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd.
My tongue sticks to the roof of My mouth.
You have brought Me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded Me.
A company of evildoers have enclosed Me.
They have pierced My hands and feet.
17 I can count all of My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them.
They cast lots for My clothing.
19 But don’t be far off, YHVH.
You are My Help. Hurry to help Me!
20 Deliver My soul from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
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#91
are you saying that His injuries and blood loss and being on the cross for so long and His physical exertion to remain alive during that time had nothing to do with His death? oh, okay.
no one can take His life; He lays it down.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#92
no one can take His life; He lays it down.
That does not mean His wounds and blood loss and beating which tore His skin all over His body and the nails through His wrists and feet and His lack of any rest leading up to the cross and His 6 hours on the cross and having to hold His head up as He pushed and pulled on the nails for every breath and His lack of water and they only offered Him vinegar and gall when He neared death, did not contribute to His physical death in His human body subject to the same limitations as our own.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#93
Not to mention bearing our sins and iniquities and being cursed while on the cross. Sometimes people can get so caught up in a phrase from one verse they refuse to see the whole and consider other aspects. Especially when talking about His passion on the cross when so many things were happening. There are other verses that say His Father put Him there and laid our sins on Him and He was made to be sin for us. Why debate about one point when so much was actually taking place. oh that's right. it's all about the debate.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#94
do you think He might have had to pee while He was on the cross? that would have been embarrassing. Hope He was able to hold it.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#95
Did Peter have it wrong too?

Acts 2

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words! Yeshua of Nazareth, a Man approved by EL to you by mighty works and wonders and signs which EL did by Him among you, even as you yourselves know, 23 Him, being delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of EL, you have taken by the hand of lawless men, crucified and killed; 24 Whom EL raised up, having freed Him from the agony of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

(Oh btw, he says EL raised Him up. Would that be the Father or do you wish to challenge that too?)
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#96
Peter even doubled down on what he said.

Acts 3

13 The EL of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the EL of our fathers, has glorified His Servant Yeshua, Whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had determined to release Him. 14 But you denied the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, Whom EL raised from the dead, to which we are witnesses.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,054
8,377
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#97
are you saying that His injuries and blood loss and being on the cross for so long and His physical exertion to remain alive during that time had nothing to do with His death? oh, okay.
That is exactly what I am saying.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,054
8,377
113
#98
Did Peter have it wrong too?

Acts 2

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words! Yeshua of Nazareth, a Man approved by EL to you by mighty works and wonders and signs which EL did by Him among you, even as you yourselves know, 23 Him, being delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of EL, you have taken by the hand of lawless men, crucified and killed; 24 Whom EL raised up, having freed Him from the agony of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

(Oh btw, he says EL raised Him up. Would that be the Father or do you wish to challenge that too?)
Conspiracy to commit murder. That is the meaning of the term "killed" in that passage.
 
Sep 28, 2023
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#99
He was living without sin!

It's a waste of time really to speculate on things God's Word is silent about.

The reason why the Lord didn't put a lot of detail about all the things Jesus was doing as a child was because it's not relevant and it's not something the Lord needs us to know.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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Why debate about one point when so much was actually taking place. oh that's right. it's all about the debate.
actually it's all about honoring Him.

my understanding of the cross has to be able to explain why the centurions watching Him were convinced He is God, saying, "no one ever died like this"
they had seen thousands die.

and i have to understand that He was not any ordinary man - He was a man over which death had no claim. sin entered the world through Adam, and death through sin. without sin, there is no death.

so i agree with @cv5 -- no amount of pysical trauma could kill Jesus. He has to set His own life down. and for that matter i scarcely believe any physical harm could be done to His body at all, unless He allowed it - because all this time He is not only perfect, sinless human, He is also omnipotent God.

He consciously allowed the thorns into His brow and the whipcord into His back.
for me. for you.
and lower still He humbled Himself - He delivered His Spirit to heaven.

Chriat is never to be pitied.
He is to be worshipped, held in awe