Predestination; are fates set in some cases?

[Evmur]

And persnickety, too! .

you little nit picker

 

[Magenta]

you little nit picker

I watched part of a documentary a short time ago about chimpanzees...

Nit picking is how they build bonds with each other in the community .

 

[Evmur]

I watched part of a documentary a short time ago about chimpanzees...

Nit picking is how they build bonds with each other in the community .

yeh that's how I bonded with my dog ... picking out his fleas

 

[John146]

It should be said that it has always been God's plan to forgive upon repentance.

Therefore He did not change His mind about anything. He did what He will always do.

God stated that he was going to destroy them. He did not destroy them. He did not do what he said he was going to do.

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

1. God lied, which is not a possibility
2. God changed his mind

 

[PaulThomson]

1:5 KJV “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations

I don't agree with that translation. Terem means before or yet, depending on context. Now the verb "I formed thee" is Qal imperfect, indicating an incompleted action, i.e. "I was yet forming you", but the verb "I knew you" is Qal perfect, a completed action. Therefore "While I was yet forming you in the womb, I knew you." Likewise, "and while you were yet coming forth out of the womb (Qal imperfect) I sanctified you (Hiphil perfect) and I gave (NTaTiYK) you (Qal perfect) a prophet to the nations".

How do you see this as teaching God knowing Jeremiah from Jeremiah's life in a previously destroyed world?

It seems to be saying that God was aware of Jeremiah as he was being formed in the womb, God decided during Jeremiah's birth to set him apart for some later use, and gave him when fully grown to the nations as a prophet.

 

[Nehemiah6]

How do you see this as teaching God knowing Jeremiah from Jeremiah's life in a previously destroyed world?

"Previously destroyed world"? Pure fantasy. And there is no need to go to the Hebrew either.

 

[Magenta]

God stated that he was going to destroy them. He did not destroy them. He did not do what he said he was going to do.

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

1. God lied, which is not a possibility
2. God changed his mind

God had compassion on them when they repented which is not changing His mind at all, and did destroy Nineveh later.

Having compassion on those who repent has always been in the plan of
God, for Jesus was purposed from before the foundation of this world.

 

[John146]

God had compassion on them when they repented which is not changing His mind at all, and did destroy Nineveh later.

Having compassion on those who repent has always been in the plan of
God, for Jesus was purposed from before the foundation of this world.

He repented of the evil that he said he would do unto them, and he did it not. That's a change of mind because God is mercy. They repented, so God repented. God did not destroy Nineveh in 40 days as he said he would.

 

[Magenta]

He repented of the evil that he said he would do unto them, and he did it not. That's a change of mind because God is mercy. They repented, so God repented. God did not destroy Nineveh in 40 days as he said he would.

It was not a change of mind to have compassion upon repentance.

2 Chronicles 7:14

 

[PaulThomson]

"Previously destroyed world"? Pure fantasy. And there is no need to go to the Hebrew either.

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and Chaldean. To prove any thesis based on the Old Testament, of course one needs to go to the Hebrew and Chaldean. We should not blindly accept the translations of men. Some bible translations were even inspired by the devil.

 

[Nehemiah6]

To prove any thesis based on the Old Testament, of course one needs to go to the Hebrew and Chaldean.

More nonsense. Since the majority of Christians are Gentiles, a sound English translation is more that enough.

 

[John146]

It was not a change of mind to have compassion upon repentance.

2 Chronicles 7:14

Well, the scripture clearly states that God did not do what he said he was going to do. If you want to debate about semantics....I was going to do this, but I decided against that, and instead I did this...

 

[PaulThomson]

More nonsense. Since the majority of Christians are Gentiles, a sound English translation is more that enough.

How do you know the translation you are reading of the text you are looking at is sound?
Why do translations sometimes disagree over the meaning of a text?
When translations disagree, how do you decide which translation is correctly expressing the original author's ideas without comparing the translations to the original text?

 

[Nehemiah6]

How do you know the translation you are reading of the text you are looking at is sound?

Because I have taken the time to carefully research the matter. In fact I had prepared a book to publish my findings, but did not go through with it for several reasons.

 

[John146]

When translations disagree, how do you decide which translation is correctly expressing the original author's ideas without comparing the translations to the original text?

You don't, that would make the individual the final authority on what God has said. We must trust that God has perfectly preserved his words for us today in one translation. If not, then none of the translations can be trusted as the word of God.

 

[PaulThomson]

Well, the scripture clearly states that God did not do what he said he was going to do. If you want to debate about semantics....I was going to do this, but I decided against that, and instead I did this...

Jer. 18:7-8 At what instant I speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the eviltht I thought to do to them.
9-10 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it do evil im my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

God seems pretty clear about how he deals with nations.

 

[PaulThomson]

You don't, that would make the individual the final authority on what God has said. We must trust that God has perfectly preserved his words for us today in one translation. If not, then none of the translations can be trusted as the word of God.

Is there one correct translation in every language that has bibles, or just for English speakers?

 

[PaulThomson]

You don't, that would make the individual the final authority on what God has said. We must trust that God has perfectly preserved his words for us today in one translation. If not, then none of the translations can be trusted as the word of God.

But the individual has to decide which translation is the correct one they will trust. That doesn't take the decision out of the individual's hands. Personally, I believe the Textus Receptus is the most reliable version of the bible, since that's the text the early church used and trusted.

 

[Niki7]

1:5 KJV “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”

The answer is YES but it is very hard to prove. Predestination touches on truths in a way that most people cannot fathom nor would be willing to accept, though the Bible is really all about predestination.

It's about - who is forever - and who is not forever. I think that what happened in rebellion sealed many fates; and that people today, as we know them, must just simply live it out; else the below Scriptures do not seem fair:

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John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)

The irony.
That there are some that were to be born into their fate is clear:

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Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. KJV

My opinion, drawn from the totality of the Scriptures; and admittedly not able to be documented by any one Scripture alone, as would have been desired; is that certain were fated to work for satan, and certain were destined to work for God; and between these two groups lies the overwhelming majority of people who have choice and free will.
Those that I refer to as satan's, would be the Kenites; and those that I refer to as God's, would be what we (sometimes confusingly) refer to as God's Elect.

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NOTE: Please do not confuse "God's Elect" with all Christians. And please understand that many times all Christians are referred to as the Elect, but that within that group is a body of individuals that were afore-ordained to work for God.


Many people read the scriptures wherein it mentions "the Elect" and "the Elect Lady," etc., and suppose that this is not speaking of the general body of Christians, but only of a sub-group. This is an error. All Christians are Elect, but there is a sub-group of these Elect that is ordained from before the world began to work the purpose of God. The difficulty is in how to know when it is speaking of the main group or when it is speaking of the sub-group.

The bottom line is that God is fair; and that if there are some "who were before of old ordained to this condemnation", and there are, then it is because of what they did in the rebellion of the First Earth Age. What is the condemnation? Observe as the Master tells us:

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John 3:17-21
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. KJV
Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. KJV

Ephesians 4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

To arrive at the true meaning of this expression, we must note that there are two words translated "foundation" in the New Testament:

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(1) themelios, and​

(2) katabole.​

The Noun, themelios,

occurs in Luke 6:48-49, 14:29, Acts 16:26, Romans 15:20,1Corinthians 3:l0-12, Ephesians 2:20, 1Timothy 6:19, 2Timothy 2:19, Hebrews 6:1, 11:10, Revelation 21:14,19. It is never used of the world (kosmos) or the earth (ge). The corresponding Verb (themelioo) occurs in Matthew 7:25, Luke 6:48, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 1:10 and 1Peter 5:10. The verb is only once used of the earth (ge). Hebrews 1:10.​

A comparison of all these passages will show that these are proper and regular terms for the English words "to found", and "foundation".​

The Noun, katabole,

occurs in Matthew 13:35, 25:34, Luke 11:50, John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, Hebrews 4:3, 9:26 , 11:11, 1Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8, 17:8 and the corresponding Verb (kataballo) occurs in 2Corinthians 4:9, Hebrews 6:1 and Revelation 12:10.​

A comparison of all these passages (especially 2Corinthians 4:9and Revelation 12:10) will show that kataballo and katabole are not the proper terms for founding and foundation, but the correct meaning is casting down, or overthrow.​

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“Consistency, therefore, calls for the same translation in Hebrews 6:1, where, instead of "not laying again", the rendering should be "not casting down". That is to say, the foundation already laid, of repentance, etc., was not to be cast down or overthrown, but was to be left and progress made unto the perfection.
Accordingly, the Noun katabole, derived from, and cognate with the Verb, ought to be translated "disruption", or "ruin".
The remarkable thing is that in all occurrences (except Hebrews 11:11) the word is connected with "the world" (Greek kosmos. Appendix 129.1), and therefore the expression should be rendered "the disruption (or ruin) of the world", clearly referring to the condition indicated in Genesis 1:2, and described in 2Peter 3:5-6. For the earth was not created tohu (Isaiah 45:18) but became so, as stated in the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2and confirmed by 2Peter 3:6, where "the world that then was by the word of God" (Genesis 1:1), perished and "the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word" were created (Genesis 2:4), and are "kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment" (2Peter 3:7) which shall usher in the "new heavens and the new earth" of 2Peter 3:13.
"The disruption of the world" is an event forming a great dividing line in the dispensations of the ages. In Genesis 1:1 we have the founding of the world (Hebrews 1:10 = themelioo), but in Genesis 1:2 we have its overthrow.
This is confirmed by a further remarkable fact, that the phrase, which occurs ten times, is associated with the Preposition apo = from (Appendix 104. iv) seven times, and with pro = before (Appendix 104. xiv) three times. The former refers to the kingdom, and is connected with the "counsels" of God; the latter refers to the Mystery (or Secret; See Appendix 193) and is connected with the "purpose" of God (see John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, 1Peter 1:20).
Ample New Testament testimony is thus given to the profoundly significant fact recorded in Genesis 1:2, that "the earth became tohu and bohu (i.e. waste and desolate); and darkness was on the face of the deep", before the creation of "the heavens and the earth which are now"(2Peter 3:7). “ EW~Bullinger

well he's banned now, but so many try to say that God is responsible for everything that happens and I have even heard a few people say 'what is the use in praying if God is just going to do what He has already planned to do?'

I think the concept of choice is a big theme throughout scripture (yes I know about the Calvinist viewpoint and have studied it) so why would God offer choice...such as to the Jews on their journey from Egypt....if He had already decided everything they would do?

A better understanding, IMHO, would be that God knows ahead of time. He is not confined to time as are we and to put it mildly, He has a better grasp on the universe than we do.

 

[NightTwister]

God stated that he was going to destroy them. He did not destroy them. He did not do what he said he was going to do.

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

1. God lied, which is not a possibility
2. God changed his mind

3. God knew that He would "change his mind" and it was His plan all along to do so.