The Glasgow razor boy and eternal security

[Evmur]

Salvation is not an Armenian vs Calvin issue

God does not look at two people and say I chose you but you will go to hell..

in the same token. God does not say do your best. and maybe I will save you.

Yes Calvin taught double predestination, there IS no predestination to damnation in the bible, there is not limited atonement. But Arminius in chucking out Calvin went further and chucked out Paul as well.

Do you know why he did that? I'll tell you why he did that.

Because he made EXACTLY the same mistake as Calvin. Arminius also supposed if we believe in predestiny and election as Paul [seems] to teach it then we must accept that in predestining and electing some God must purposely bypass everybody else thereby damning them.

This is the crux of the argument, it's what this stupid wrangle that has gone on for centuries in the church is all about.

At least Calvin didn't take predestination and election out of the scripture which is what Arminius did and he replaced it with this "freewill choosing" doctrine. It is HUNDREDS of times worse than Calvin but there ya go it sounds sweet on the ears, it pleases the mind.

What is the answer?

The answer is to go back to scripture and ask God what it can all mean.

One of the things He will show you is that predestination and election is not unto salvation but unto the church, to be a people on earth who are being conformed to the image of God's belovéd Son, to be a people chosen in Christ before the world was founded to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace. Praise His name forever.

We are to be the instrument of God's blessing to the families of the world. To lift up society around us. To be a city set upon a hill WHY? to exclude everybody? NO, NO, a thousand times no. But that through us the world might be saved.

THAT'S what predestination and election is for.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Look you can choose because Christ has set you FREE.

Before He set you free you had no choice. You were a sinner and you were doomed to die. If God had not come to you with the good news you would be a sinner yet.

And your believing the gospel was accomplished by the workings of the Holy Spirit in your heart. Don't sit there and tell me you believed that Jesus hung on the cross bearing your sins 2, 000 years ago and that 3 days later after every drop of His blood was spilled God raised this same Jesus up alive again.

Don't tell me you believed any of that .... your believing was worked in you by the Holy Ghost.

The HS is sent tot he world. Not just the elect.

The unpardonable sin is to reject the HS (blasphemy) through unbelief..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes Calvin taught double predestination, there IS no predestination to damnation in the bible, there is not limited atonement. But Arminius in chucking out Calvin went further and chucked out Paul as well.

Do you know why he did that? I'll tell you why he did that.

Because he made EXACTLY the same mistake as Calvin. Arminius also supposed if we believe in predestiny and election as Paul [seems] to teach it then we must accept that in predestining and electing some God must purposely bypass everybody else thereby damning them.

This is the crux of the argument, it's what this stupid wrangle that has gone on for centuries in the church is all about.

At least Calvin didn't take predestination and election out of the scripture which is what Arminius did and he replaced it with this "freewill choosing" doctrine. It is HUNDREDS of times worse than Calvin but there ya go it sounds sweet on the ears, it pleases the mind.

What is the answer?

The answer is to go back to scripture and ask God what it can all mean.

One of the things He will show you is that predestination and election is not unto salvation but unto the church, to be a people on earth who are being conformed to the image of God's belovéd Son, to be a people chosen in Christ before the world was founded to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace. Praise His name forever.

We are to be the instrument of God's blessing to the families of the world. To lift up society around us. To be a city set upon a hill WHY? to exclude everybody? NO, NO, a thousand times no. But that through us the world might be saved.

THAT'S what predestination and election is for.

I think people make things to difficult.. The calvinist thinker is so afraid of even the thought of saving himself. he has made this thought that God must first regenerate you, THEN you have the ability to believe. And you can not have free will, because if you do, again, the old SAVE SELF thinking comes up.

Whereas the opposite side is so apposed to the Calvinist side, he can not even grant that any part of his doctrine is true, so OSAS is a damnable heresy. and Free will right along with it

I agree with you, we have to get to the word.

God created man and put him and her in the garden, It was NOT his will that they sinned. However, if he prevented them from sinning by removing their free will. there is a major problem.

1. Satan is justified in his lie against God that he wants to pull our strings and make us all do his will.. God is a dictator
2. There can be no love relationship between God and his creation. In order for someone to love you to the purest degree, they must be able to disagree with you. If every thought they have is forced on them, then there is no love relationship.

God is sovereign, But he gave up his right freely to force his creation to do whatever he wanted (make them robots) he gave them free will. and wanted them to love him, and see his love for them (he wanted to serve them)

Adam and eve chose to sin.

In the same token. We have to have the ability to say Yes or No to God. if there is to be any real type of relationship to be had.

Thats why scripture is clear. Just as Moses lifted the serpent. so to must the son of man be lifted. that whoever believes will never die, and has eternal life.

The people of Israel had to freely chose in faith to look up to the serpent to live, In the same token, All people on earth are force to freely chose to believe the gospel. or reject it.'

He who of his free will says yes, is saved

he who of his free will is condemned already because he has not believed.

 

[Evmur]

I think people make things to difficult.. The calvinist thinker is so afraid of even the thought of saving himself. he has made this thought that God must first regenerate you, THEN you have the ability to believe. And you can not have free will, because if you do, again, the old SAVE SELF thinking comes up.

Whereas the opposite side is so apposed to the Calvinist side, he can not even grant that any part of his doctrine is true, so OSAS is a damnable heresy. and Free will right along with it

I agree with you, we have to get to the word.

God created man and put him and her in the garden, It was NOT his will that they sinned. However, if he prevented them from sinning by removing their free will. there is a major problem.

1. Satan is justified in his lie against God that he wants to pull our strings and make us all do his will.. God is a dictator
2. There can be no love relationship between God and his creation. In order for someone to love you to the purest degree, they must be able to disagree with you. If every thought they have is forced on them, then there is no love relationship.

God is sovereign, But he gave up his right freely to force his creation to do whatever he wanted (make them robots) he gave them free will. and wanted them to love him, and see his love for them (he wanted to serve them)

Adam and eve chose to sin.

In the same token. We have to have the ability to say Yes or No to God. if there is to be any real type of relationship to be had.

Thats why scripture is clear. Just as Moses lifted the serpent. so to must the son of man be lifted. that whoever believes will never die, and has eternal life.

The people of Israel had to freely chose in faith to look up to the serpent to live, In the same token, All people on earth are force to freely chose to believe the gospel. or reject it.'

He who of his free will says yes, is saved

he who of his free will is condemned already because he has not believed.

Thanks btw for your contribution.

 

[oyster67]

Read your post brother. It is all about I,

Sorry. Didn't mean to make you choke on your oatmeal. I will edit my post...

Some have never turned apostate. Some have never hardened their heart against their Lord. This does not mean that they have never slipped and repented in timely fashion. God does not require absolute perfection, but He does require that they do their best and retain a semblance of humility. So many seem to want to twist salvation into a big license to sin for the rest of their lives. They want a golden ticket providing lifetime supply of indulgences. Such perversion of God's good Word.

Doesn't change the meaning or point much, does it.
But I will try to be more E-G sensitive next time I post.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Sorry. Didn't mean to make you choke on your oatmeal. I will edit my post...



Doesn't change the meaning or point much, does it.
But I will try to be more E-G sensitive next time I post.

It did not change the meaning at all

It is still pointing to self. not God.

The only thing it changed, was who the "I" referred to.

ps. You do not bother me.. You do not have to be sensitive to me.. I am just trying to get you to see what you are saying..

 

[oyster67]

Salvation is from sin so how can it be turned into a license to sin.

By the magic of Calvinism.

The clues to eternal security are in the words God uses.

Yes, Calvinizers love to separate words from their context.

now you are afraid you might be lost again.

I am not... and your saying so changes nothing. You can dispense with your pins and voodoo dolls. They won't work on me. Jesus love Oyster and Oyster love Jesus.

They know they are in the Good Shepherd's hands but they are afraid they may be snatched out.

Apostacy is not "being snatched out." Apostacy is walking away and never returning.

Then they say something stupid like "ah but we can wriggle free"

Yes, apostacy is a stupid thing to do, but in case you haven't noticed, there are lots of stupid people around.

but that is exactly what your doctrine means

We are saved by grace through faith [but the probationer says] we can only stay saved by our own efforts [with God's help of course]
They start in the Spirit but now aim to complete the job in their own strength.

The just come by faith and the just live by faith.

Look you can choose because Christ has set you FREE.

I can choose because Jesus died and paid the price for sin 2000 years ago. He died so that any and every man could freely choose, not just a special preselected few. (Where does that garbage come from????)

I once thought that everyone must surely understand the simple truth of John 3:16.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

That means that THE CALL GOES OUT TO ALL. Just like the parable of the great feast.

Before He set you free you had no choice.

No.
Wrong.
He made that choice available to all mankind 2000 years ago, my friend. That is the Gospel Message. That is what Calvinism seeks to undermine. It comes straight from the pit of Hell, my brother!

If God had not come to you with the good news you would be a sinner yet.

The call goes out to all.

Don't sit there and tell me you believed that Jesus hung on the cross bearing your sins 2, 000 years ago and that 3 days later after every drop of His blood was spilled God raised this same Jesus up alive again.

Don't tell me you believed any of that ....

That is EXACTLY what I believed. That is EXACTLY what it means to come by faith. We are given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit after we are born again, not before. We are made new creatures after we are born again, not before. John 3:16 says every man must confess and believe. Not just some special pre-selected master-class. This "must be preselected before salvation is available" is a Satanic lie.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

The Call goes out to All.

 

[oyster67]

I am just trying to get you to see what you are saying..

I see..

You are saying that I am saying that it is WE who must make the choice to follow the Lord, and that WE must do this before WE are born again.

Yes. This is MY understanding of the Gospel.

Your observation of my understanding would be correct, then. My apology for misunderstanding your initial point.

Does your understanding of the Gospel differ from the above???

 

[Nehemiah6]

God is sovereign, But he gave up his right freely to force his creation to do whatever he wanted...

That is not really the correct way to look at man's free will. God created mankind in His own likeness and image so that men would freely choose to love Him and obey Him. Which meant that human beings were given free will, and Adam's free (and wrong) choice proves that.

But this certainly did not -- and does not -- affect God's sovereignty in any way. What it does is makes men accountable to God and also face the consequences of their free will decisions. In the meantime God rules over Heaven and earth, and all things are in His hands.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I see..

You are saying that I am saying that it is WE who must make the choice to follow the Lord, and that WE must do this before WE are born again.

Yes. This is MY understanding of the Gospel.

Your observation of my understanding would be correct, then. My apology for misunderstanding your initial point.

Does your understanding of the Gospel differ from the above???

nope

I see you staying I will do what I need to do to same myselF. And try my best.

sorry bro, your best is not good enough.

 

[mailmandan]

With televangelists who have fallen all over the place, millions leaving the church, & I guess you're going to say either they're still saved regardless or all these people weren't saved in the first place?
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have [e]fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, [f]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

See post #66 from the link below:

Andy Stanley's Apostasy - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

 

[oyster67]

your best is not good enough.

Actually, it is. When God sees us doing our best, He takes care of the rest. We are to trust and obey. That is the life of faith. Jesus' atonement is the reason that our best is good enough to keep us in tune with the Lord. It does not earn our salvation, but it is our duty as disciples and followers of Jesus.

Luke 17:10
“So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Actually, it is. When God sees us doing our best, He takes care of the rest. We are to trust and obey. That is the life of faith. Jesus' atonement is the reason that our best is good enough to keep us in tune with the Lord. It does not earn our salvation, but it is our duty as disciples and followers of Jesus.

Luke 17:10
“So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”

Actually no it is not. if our best is good enough. We would be under law not under grace

we are forced to be under grace because at our best, we still fall short of Gods glory

 

[JimmyTheLock]

It is with THEM in view that He makes salvation a once and forever work which can never be undone.

Sounds like we can all go get drunk, do drugs, buy hookers, cheat on our taxes, steal stuff from work, commit adultery, etc etc, etc... because the grace of God is a license to sin!

No need to accept the whole counsel of God, let's just take a handful of happy verses and ignore the rest of God's Word!

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Sounds like we can all go get drunk, do drugs, buy hookers, cheat on our taxes, steal stuff from work, commit adultery, etc etc, etc... because the grace of God is a license to sin!

No need to accept the whole counsel of God, let's just take a handful of happy verses and ignore the rest of God's Word!

View attachment 257586

Maybe thats your desire to do all those things. But Gods people are made new creatures. Thats not who they are anymore..

 

[mailmandan]

Sounds like we can all go get drunk, do drugs, buy hookers, cheat on our taxes, steal stuff from work, commit adultery, etc etc, etc... because the grace of God is a license to sin!

No need to accept the whole counsel of God, let's just take a handful of happy verses and ignore the rest of God's Word!

View attachment 257586

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Got to love when people scream at those they appose as not trusting God. when they claim by their own words. they do nto trust God to change his children..

 

[Fundaamental]

What is a Glasgow razor boy ?.

It's sounds like an intimidating statement

 

[Evmur]

Sounds like we can all go get drunk, do drugs, buy hookers, cheat on our taxes, steal stuff from work, commit adultery, etc etc, etc... because the grace of God is a license to sin!

No need to accept the whole counsel of God, let's just take a handful of happy verses and ignore the rest of God's Word!

View attachment 257586

if you think like that you are not saved

 

[Evmur]

What is a Glasgow razor boy ?.

It's sounds like an intimidating statement

you could say