Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J

John146

Senior Member
#101
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#101
Nehemiah6 said:
Paul Thomson is turning out to be a naysayer.

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (2 Tim 2:19)

If God know them that are His, He also knows them that are not His. Period.
Click to expand...
Let us take the truth from this verse. How does the Lord know who are his? By his seal, the Holy Spirit. When does one receive the Holy Spirit? Upon believing the gospel.

To say that God already knows this ahead of time makes this verse a lie. Notice the Galatians passages states that “after that ye are known of God.” God does not know you until you believe the gospel and he seals you as one of his.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#102
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#102
Magenta said:
John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well,
and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.
Click to expand...
See Matthew 25. Upon the second coming, the Lord divides the nations, sheep and goats.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#103
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
13,558
113
#103
PaulThomson said:
Probability functions are not knowable in the present.
Click to expand...
the observer effect and the double slit experiment proves you are incorrect about this.

His invisible qualities are made known by the things which are made, therefore man is without excuse.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#104
Jul 3, 2015
60,141
29,453
113
#104
posthuman said:
the observer effect and the double slit experiment proves you are incorrect about this.

His invisible qualities are made known by the things which are made, therefore man is without excuse.
Click to expand...

Psalm 19:1
:)
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#107
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,774
113
#107
John146 said:
To say that God already knows this ahead of time makes this verse a lie.
Click to expand...
Rubbish. No it does not. You are forgetting another verse which confirms that God knew from the very beginning those that are His. Now note carefully: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)

So do you understand the meaning of "foreknow" and "predestinate"? And do you know that this was so from "before the foundation of the world"?
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph 1:4,5)

John146, kindly stop promoting false doctrine. You are pushing your agenda in the face of clear Bible verses.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#109
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
13,558
113
#109
PaulThomson said:
He knows everything that exists to be known at any moment. That knowledge is complete. Probability functions are not knowable in the present.
Click to expand...
in fact, for Him to have performed any physical miracle - like resurrection of the body or the healing of leprosy for example, He has to have absolute knowledge and control of the physical creation. because the velocity and position functions of every baryonic particle are probabilistic and He recombines all of them to regenerate rotted flesh, He demonstrates knowledge of things that are impossible for mankind to know - specifically, He knows both the position and velocity of every electron in Lazarus' flesh even when they have decayed, simultaneously, with absolutely perfect accuracy.

the Heisenberg & related uncertainty principles are theories of measurement. they are not statements about nonexistence of information - but even if they were, your open theism ideas of 'God knows all things that may be known but not everything can be known' are fundamentally attacks on His ability to create the world, when you give probabilistic distributions as an example. He created the electron cloud - and your position suggests He had no idea what He was doing.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#110
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
13,558
113
#110
PaulThomson said:
Probability functions are not knowable in the present.
Click to expand...
Proverbs 16:33​
The lot is cast into the lap, ​
but its every decision is from the LORD.​
​
right there in the Bible.
God has complete knowledge of and control over probabilistic distributions
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#111
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#111
Nehemiah6 said:
Rubbish. No it does not. You are forgetting another verse which confirms that God knew from the very beginning those that are His. Now note carefully: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)

So do you understand the meaning of "foreknow" and "predestinate"? And do you know that this was so from "before the foundation of the world"?
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph 1:4,5)

John146, kindly stop promoting false doctrine. You are pushing your agenda in the face of clear Bible verses.
Click to expand...
Foreknow, to know ahead of time. Predestinate is to determine the outcome before the outcome occurs.

Before God determines one’s outcome, he’s got to know them first. He knows them when they believe the gospel. Once they believe the gospel, he knows them, thus foreknew before he predestinates the believer.

***God knows me as one of his. I have not been conformed to the image of his Son. That is a future event which is the adoption, the redemption of the body. My destination has been determined, not before he knew me, but after.

Clear scripture. Never go outside scripture to define God. You’re starting to sound like a fatalist.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#112
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#112
posthuman said:
in fact, for Him to have performed any physical miracle - like resurrection of the body or the healing of leprosy for example, He has to have absolute knowledge and control of the physical creation. because the velocity and position functions of every baryonic particle are probabilistic and He recombines all of them to regenerate rotted flesh, He demonstrates knowledge of things that are impossible for mankind to know - specifically, He knows both the position and velocity of every electron in Lazarus' flesh even when they have decayed, simultaneously, with absolutely perfect accuracy.

the Heisenberg & related uncertainty principles are theories of measurement. they are not statements about nonexistence of information - but even if they were, your open theism ideas of 'God knows all things that may be known but not everything can be known' are fundamentally attacks on His ability to create the world, when you give probabilistic distributions as an example. He created the electron cloud - and your position suggests He had no idea what He was doing.
Click to expand...
Your first paragraph goes along with what we have been saying. All knowledge that can be known. And then you go outside scripture using human logic to define God. Stick with Bible. It never fails.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#113
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
13,558
113
#113
John146 said:
Your first paragraph goes along with what we have been saying. All knowledge that can be known. And then you go outside scripture using human logic to define God. Stick with Bible. It never fails.
Click to expand...

Proverbs 16:33​
the lot is cast into the lap, ​
but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.​


casting lots is equivalent rolling dice. a proabalistic distribution unknowable in human terms.

but God is not anthropomorphized.
what is impossible with man is possible with God - both in terms of doing and of knowing.
He both fully knows and controls proabalistic distributions - "the whole disposing thereof"

God knows what is impossible for man to know.
scripture says so.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#114
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
13,558
113
#114
PaulThomson said:
Future things "are not". Some things God promises for the future. The prophecies are i.e. do exist, but their fulfilments are not., i.e. do not exist Yet God speaks of them as though they are, because he is able to bring those prophesied events about by His omnipotence. The future things are not known,:they do not exist to be known. But the prophecies of the future events are known: the prophecies exist to be known.
Click to expand...
the fact that He speaks of future events as though they have already happened indicates He is not 'inside of' time. He is unconstrained by time. He is not affected by time and sees/knows all of time, both past and future, all at once.

Did time exist before God?

no.

He created time. He is therefore not subject to time.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#115
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#115
posthuman said:
Proverbs 16:33​
the lot is cast into the lap, ​
but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.​


casting lots is equivalent rolling dice. a proabalistic distribution unknowable in human terms.

but God is not anthropomorphized.
what is impossible with man is possible with God - both in terms of doing and of knowing.
He both fully knows and controls proabalistic distributions - "the whole disposing thereof"

God knows what is impossible for man to know.
scripture says so.
Click to expand...
post 96

I agree, God knows many things man cannot know. Man cannot know another man’s thoughts. Man cannot count the sands on a beach.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#116
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
13,558
113
#116
PaulThomson said:
You have a neo-platonic concept of omniscience. The Bible is not a neoplatonic revelation. It is a Hebrew revelation which nowhere speaks of God as having na neo-platonic kind of omniscience. No one has shown scripture declaring God's knowledge is exhaustive of every detail of every world and of every time, including the future. That is a Greek idea, smuggled into the text, not a biblical one, drawn from the text..
Click to expand...
for that matter the idea that information and knowledge is 'created' by man exercising free will is also neoplatonic.

so you have God ever-increasing in knowledge as you yourself create the universe around you, making the God of five minutes from now infinitely greater in understanding than the God of five minutes ago.

but scripture says He knows our thoughts before we think them -

Psalms 139:4​
For [there is] not a word on my tongue, [But] behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.​

and all our deeds before we do them -

Psalms 139:16​
Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When [as yet there were] none of them.​
​
open theism isn't compatible with this. it's an attempt to reconcile the mystery of God's total knowledge and power with mankind's free agency, by placing our will above God's understanding. but what does David say, meditating on the all-encompassing omniscience of God, concerning his own life and thoughts and ways?

Psalms 139:6​
[Such] knowledge [is] too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot [attain] it.​
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#117
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#117
If one claims that God knew ahead of time that Nineveh would repent, and he in turn would not overthrow them in forty days, would be calling God a liar. I’m not willing to do that.

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#118
Mar 1, 2022
19,193
6,607
113
62
#118
John146 said:
If one claims that God knew ahead of time that Nineveh would repent, and he in turn would not overthrow them in forty days, would be calling God a liar. I’m not willing to do that.

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Click to expand...
Do you believe God is infinite?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.