Who sinned first Human or Lucifer?

Researcher · Nov 18, 2023

I agree.

I disagree.

I agree.

Thus, if we continue with the timeline given in Revelation 12, we know that Satan was cast out of Heaven *after* the Woman brought forth the Manchild...

Revelation 12:9
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This means that Satan could not have been cast out until *after* the events in the Garden of Eden, i.e., until after Women began birthing Children.

Depending on who folks believe the Woman is, the casting out event could have taken place thousands of years after Adam and Eve.

oyster67 · Nov 18, 2023

Pramila said:

Your question is very good.

Satan appears to have been created in Heaven and to have fallen down to Earth, taking many other angels with him. One-third of them, according to Rev 12. They are referred to as "stars".

oyster67 · Nov 18, 2023

Researcher said:

Thus, if we continue with the timeline given in Revelation 12, we know that Satan was cast out of Heaven *after* the Woman brought forth the Manchild...

Revelation 12:9
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This means that Satan could not have been cast out until *after* the events in the Garden of Eden, i.e., until after Women began birthing Children.

Depending on who folks believe the Woman is, the casting out event could have taken place thousands of years after Adam and Eve.

The first casting down to Earth happened in v.4.

Inquisitor · Nov 18, 2023

oyster67 said:

Your interpretation becomes problematic.

Revelation 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.

The dragon only had a short time on earth. The timing in the text (Revelation 12) seems to indicate that the dragon arrived just before she gave birth.

So how can the dragon (serpent) be in the garden with Eve?

oyster67 · Nov 19, 2023

Inquisitor said:

There is no problem with Revelation. There may be a problem with your understanding and interpretation.

The Dragon is Satan and the Woman is the avenue though which Jesus came to Earth. It does not refer to a specific female individual. In v.6, it mentions this woman fleeing into the wilderness. That is Israel at the end of the Great Tribulation.

Revelation 12:6
“And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.”

Revelation 12 covers a vast amount of time and is of broad scope.

Inquisitor · Nov 19, 2023

oyster67 said:

I never said that I have an interpretation of Revelation. I have no problem at all.

Revelation 12 is about signs in heaven.

You said

Using your interpretation, since Revelation 12 covers a vast amount of time. Then it seems that, any event in a specific time would be undefined.

One could not say specifically when the serpent was cast down to earth.

JohnRH · Nov 19, 2023

Pramila said:

Notice the present tenses:
Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: (It doesn't say "always was". I know you agree that the earth was created).
'Throne' implies dominion. Only God existed in eternity past, so there was no one or nothing for Him to have dominion over. It seems that He didn't have a throne back then.
'Dwelling' is in relation to space. Space didn't exist back then - it hadn't been created yet.
I think the 3rd heaven had to be created because it exists; otherwise it would be part of a pantheistic god.

Inquisitor · Nov 19, 2023

JohnRH said:

Whether heaven and angels have existed for some defined time period. Is impossible to answer because heaven does not run on earthly time scales.

God is eternal and we are already seated with Christ in heaven. Please explain?

posthuman · Nov 19, 2023

Pramila said:

te fall of Satan took place clearly after the creation of angels and before the fall of man.

BTW Romans says sin entered the world when Adam. fell, not when Woman did. a subtle point but an important one when we follow out the implications... which are important to figuring out when Satan fell.

my guess is between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, personally

posthuman · Nov 19, 2023

Pramila said:

also day 1 —

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that [it was] good; and God divided the light from the darkness.

also not said, "good"

good point!

posthuman · Nov 19, 2023

Pramila said:

Not sure that logically follows, because He also dwelt in the tabernacle and temple enthroned between the cherubim on the mercy seat, and those were clearly not eternal...

montana123 · Nov 19, 2023

Pramila said:

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I believe the angels were created before God started creation in Genesis 1 for they are not mentioned in the creation.

The Bible says Jesus is the beginning of creation although He was not born until the future for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, and I believe creation was made for people and not for the angels.

Lucifer fell before Adam and Eve sinned for he tempted Eve when she was in her innocent state to disobey God so he was evil before she ate of the tree.

I do not believe God would of created humans if Lucifer did not fall.

Adam and Eve were created knowing God, and He put the tree in the garden because He gave them a choice.

It would of never entered their mind to eat of the tree unless an outside source tempted them.

So God allowed Satan to to tempt Eve which she said they cannot eat of the tree.

Then Satan tempted her with an alternate reality to appeal to her arrogance by saying that she would be like a god giving her an exalted position, and possibly God could not touch her, and she ate of the fruit and sinned.

Then Eve was the outside source that tempted Adam that nothing bad happened to her, and she did not die, then Adam ate of the fruit and sinned.

So they now had a choice to choose good or evil, and all their offspring are born with a choice so they are born not knowing God, and will sin before they come to God in repentance so all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Why did Lucifer rebel against God seeing He is an omnipresent Spirit, and all powerful.

I do not believe the angels knew how great God is for He did not reveal that to them.

We get to know how great God is because it is based on faith.

God probably had an angelic body to have a visible relationship with the angels, and Lucifer thought is that all there is to God and thought he could exalt himself but found out that God is much more powerful than him.

Now the devils know God is all powerful and they tremble, and when Satan is cast to Earth which he inhabits a human body as the antichrist he is mad for he knows he has a short time.

Pramila · Nov 19, 2023

JohnRH said:

The word translated "was" in Genesis 1:2: "And the earth was without form and void" is the Hebrew word "hayah", which should actually have been translated as "became" - and it has been translated as "became" in the following verses:
"man became (hayah) a living soul" (Gen. 2:7)
"Lot's wife became (hayah) a pillar of salt" (Genesis 19:26).She wasn't always a pillar of salt. She became one. In the same way, the earth became without form and void.

Satan was cast down from "the third heaven" (the immediate presence of God- 2 Cor.12:2) at that time. But we are told in Ephesians 6:12 that Satan and his demons still dwell "in the heavenlies". The first heaven is the universe that we see with our eyes (Psa.8:3). The "heavenlies" that Satan and his demons dwell in must therefore be the second heaven, which we cannot see. One day he will be cast down from there to the earth (Rev.12:10). This may perhaps be why the Lord did not say, "It is good" on the second day (of the six days in Genesis 1), when the heavens were separated - because Satan was dwelling in the second heaven.

Two different words are used in Genesis 1 in relation to the creation and the re-making of the earth. The word used in Genesis 1:1 is "bara" (Hebrew for "created"). The word used in Genesis 1:7 is "asah" (Hebrew for "made"). Creation refers to that which was created from nothing. The word "made" refers to what was made from something that was already existing. The fishes and birds were created (v.21) and so was man (v.27). Man's body was made but his soul was created. Since every word of God is inspired, there must have been a very good reason why the Holy Spirit has used two different words in Genesis 1.

In Exodus 20:11, Scripture clearly states (beyond any shadow of doubt) that "in six days the LORD made (asah - Heb.) the heavens and the earth". Scripture never says anywhere that the Lord created the earth in six days, but always uses the word "made". The earth was MADE in 6 days - not created in 6 days. This is repeated in Exodus 31:17 too. We must be very exact when quoting Scripture - and use God's own words and not ours.

The creation of the earth was an act of a single moment (Gen.1:1). It was remade for man after the fall of the angels, in six days.

Pramila · Nov 19, 2023

posthuman said:

Exodus 25:8 Let them construct a sanctuary (miqdash) for me, that I may dwell (shakhan) among them.

Miqdash is related to the word qadosh, which means holiness. A miqdash is a holy place—in this case, a place unique and set apart for the elohim above elohim to dwell within. Shakhan means to dwell in a tent. Yahweh shows Moses the heavenly temple and then gives him a pattern to follow as he organizes the construction of the earthly tabernacle.

When humans enter this earthly tabernacle, they are meant to realize they’re inhabiting two spaces at once, both heaven and earth. Every element of the tabernacle structure represents some element that would draw people back to the Eden narrative, from its three-tiered structure that mimicked the ancient Hebrew conception of the garden, to the cherubim carved by its entrance, to its furniture that represented different elements of the garden.

In a way, when we see moments in the Bible where a place represents Eden, this is actually Eden reappearing. Eden isn’t just a place where heaven and earth symbolically meet—it’s a place where literally heaven and earth are one, which is why it rematerializes in other geographic locations throughout the story of Scripture. It exists in such a way that it can touch down in many different earthly locations, including in the tabernacle. However, in the tabernacle, only a priest selected once a year could enter into God’s presence in the Holy of Holies—a sharp contrast to the garden in which humans walked freely with Yahweh. The priests’ activities in the tabernacle are an enactment of humanity’s eventual return to Eden to dwell with Yahweh. The rituals and tabernacle articles are part of how God makes a way for humans to come into his presence. The tabernacle is truly Eden, but a limited Eden.

Pramila · Nov 19, 2023

Inquisitor said:

Thanks for your question. The short answer is in the same way the Christian has already been "glorified" with Christ (Rom. 8:30) and "raised up" with him (Col. 3:1). Without being too technical let me explain.

To briefly understand the strength and totality of Paul's argument, let's look at all three texts:

Romans 8:30: And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:6: ...and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:1: If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

ThyKingdomComeSoon · Nov 19, 2023

Pramila said:

From the book of JOB;

Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Job 38:5 Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
Job 38:6 On what were its foundations set, or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 Who enclosed the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb,
Job 38:9 when I made the clouds its garment and thick darkness its blanket,........

Many things we do not know but the angels were in existence when the earth was created. The snake was in the garden!

Blessings.

ThyKingdomComeSoon · Nov 19, 2023

montana123 said:

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I believe the angels were created before God started creation in Genesis 1 for they are not mentioned in the creation.

The Bible says Jesus is the beginning of creation although He was not born until the future for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, and I believe creation was made for people and not for the angels.

Lucifer fell before Adam and Eve sinned for he tempted Eve when she was in her innocent state to disobey God so he was evil before she ate of the tree.

I do not believe God would of created humans if Lucifer did not fall.

Adam and Eve were created knowing God, and He put the tree in the garden because He gave them a choice.

It would of never entered their mind to eat of the tree unless an outside source tempted them.

So God allowed Satan to to tempt Eve which she said they cannot eat of the tree.

Then Satan tempted her with an alternate reality to appeal to her arrogance by saying that she would be like a god giving her an exalted position, and possibly God could not touch her, and she ate of the fruit and sinned.

Then Eve was the outside source that tempted Adam that nothing bad happened to her, and she did not die, then Adam ate of the fruit and sinned.

So they now had a choice to choose good or evil, and all their offspring are born with a choice so they are born not knowing God, and will sin before they come to God in repentance so all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Why did Lucifer rebel against God seeing He is an omnipresent Spirit, and all powerful.

I do not believe the angels knew how great God is for He did not reveal that to them.

We get to know how great God is because it is based on faith.

God probably had an angelic body to have a visible relationship with the angels, and Lucifer thought is that all there is to God and thought he could exalt himself but found out that God is much more powerful than him.

Now the devils know God is all powerful and they tremble, and when Satan is cast to Earth which he inhabits a human body as the antichrist he is mad for he knows he has a short time.

At the end it boils down to this; We are here now on this earth to make a choice, to decide what tree we pick. I choose life.

Blessings.

awelight · Nov 19, 2023

Pramila said:

This is a great and complex question.

Pramila said:

You have asked a great question that has a complex answer.

Little is said in Scripture about the creation of Angels and very little about the 1/3 that fell. So getting to a "Thus saith the Lord" type answer, can not apply here. However, we can make some reasonable and logical conclusions.

Question: Who was first in sin.. Lucifer (The Devil) or Adam?
Obviously, it had to be Lucifer, who took the form of a serpent in the Garden. The serpent tempted Eve by twisting what God had said. Eve believed the serpent and then became the temptor of her mate... Adam. This is just plain logic as seen within the events of Genesis. Therefore, we can conclude that Lucifer and a third of the Angels fell first and were cast out after the war which was in the heavens before Adam and Eve sinned.

Question: If Lucifer fell first, then why didn't his sin contaminate the whole of creation? Perhaps because creation, as revealed in Genesis, had not yet taken place but this is doubtful. More likely, the reason for the world (earth), being "void" or "useless", was because it was thrown into chaos when the fallen Angels were cast down upon it. However, we must keep in mind, that the Lord did not reveal all of the answers to these questions. We don't know when the Angels were created. We don't know when this rebellion took place in the Heavens and we don't know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden.

Question: If Eve fell first in sin, then why does the Bible say Adam did?
This we know with greater assurance. Eve was not constituted as being first in sin because she was not our Federal Head. Adam was our Federal Head. That is to say, that all of mankind was in Adam.. legally because he was the first of his kind in creation. If Adam were to "fall" and he did, then all of the Human race would fail in the same way. Past, Present and Future.

I hope this will be a little help. Many more things could yet be said.

john832 · Nov 19, 2023

John146 said:

***WARNING*** Long Read

Apparently at this time, Lucifer had not sinned. There is a great time span between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. During this period, Lucifer rebelled...

Isa 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
Isa 14:13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

Eze 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
Eze 28:14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
Eze 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
Eze 28:16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.
Eze 28:17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.
Eze 28:18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.

During this rebellion, The earth was destroyed. It became tohu and bohu, as translated in the NKJV as chaos and confusion.

Gen 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Now ALL the sons of God, which included Lucifer, didn't shout for joy for the scene described in Gen 1:2 and God is not the author of confusion...

1Co_14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

The earth was created beautiful, Satan wrecked it and Gd recreated it beautiful. During the Millennium, the whole earth will be made like the garden again by the resurrected saints...

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Rom 8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
Rom 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

The word adoption in verse 23 should rightly be translated sonship or even birth. Thos God has called now and are baptized and converted are begotten with the Holy Spirit. At the resurrection we will be born into the family of God.

John146 · Nov 19, 2023

john832 said:

***WARNING*** Long Read

Apparently at this time, Lucifer had not sinned. There is a great time span between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. During this period, Lucifer rebelled...

Isa 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
Isa 14:13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

Eze 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
Eze 28:14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
Eze 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
Eze 28:16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.
Eze 28:17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.
Eze 28:18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.

During this rebellion, The earth was destroyed. It became tohu and bohu, as translated in the NKJV as chaos and confusion.

Gen 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Now ALL the sons of God, which included Lucifer, didn't shout for joy for the scene described in Gen 1:2 and God is not the author of confusion...

1Co_14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

The earth was created beautiful, Satan wrecked it and Gd recreated it beautiful. During the Millennium, the whole earth will be made like the garden again by the resurrected saints...

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Rom 8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
Rom 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

The word adoption in verse 23 should rightly be translated sonship or even birth. Thos God has called now and are baptized and converted are begotten with the Holy Spirit. At the resurrection we will be born into the family of God.

Agree with everything but the word "adoption" which is defined in the same verse as the redemption of the body. This is later explained as being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. At the resurrection, we will be finally adopted as a child of God being conformed to the image of God's Son.

Who sinned first Human or Lucifer?

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