Is Baptism in water a work or a command? Is it necessary for salvation?

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Cameron143

Cameron143

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turbosixx said:
Yes, any work under the law of Moses. They were dealing with men trying to force circumcision. Paul in 4:21- he gives an analogy of those under law and those under grace.
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Any commandment, as a condition for relationship with God, is included. His example was used because it was the one present in this case. If you base your relationship with God on how well you love your neighbor, you will not attain eternal life any more than if you base it circumcision. The law always brings death to fallen flesh.
 
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turbosixx

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Cameron143 said:
Any commandment, as a condition for relationship with God, is included.
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I disagree. If that were the case, Paul wouldn't have included the qualifier "of the law". He's dealing with people going back to the law.
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Cameron143 said:
His example was used because it was the one present in this case. If you base your relationship with God on how well you love your neighbor, you will not attain eternal life any more than if you base it circumcision. The law always brings death to fallen flesh.
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I'm not saying "how well" you love your neighbor. I'm saying you must love your neighbor. We are human so it won't be perfect.

Can we be saved without doing any these? Can we pick and choose only the ones we agree with?
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

How can anyone KNOW they are in Christ?
5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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turbosixx said:
I disagree. If that were the case, Paul wouldn't have included the qualifier "of the law". He's dealing with people going back to the law.
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.


I'm not saying "how well" you love your neighbor. I'm saying you must love your neighbor. We are human so it won't be perfect.

Can we be saved without doing any these? Can we pick and choose only the ones we agree with?
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

How can anyone KNOW they are in Christ?
5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
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You have already admitted we can't keep His commandments. Neither can we produce fruit.
Why do you believe God accepts anything short of perfect righteousness? If doing our best was all that is required, no need for Jesus, the cross, OT sacrifice, the law, or anything else.
The new covenant is a covenant between God the Father and Jesus the Son. It is a works based covenant wherein the Son would be born under the law and fulfill the law that He would provide His people a perfect righteousness. It also included a blood sacrifice that assuaged God's wrath in light of their sins.
We are the beneficiaries of this covenant if we believe. No works can do anything to help one receive the benefits because no works are required. It can only be gifted.
It is only after one receives the benefits of the covenant that works apply...created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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turbosixx said:
How does one receive the benefits? What must I do to be saved?
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Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

When Jesus was asked what works should be done that they might work the works of God...John 6...what was His response? He told them to believe. Why? Because what we believe, we do. What we say doesn't always reflect what we do. This was a problem for the Pharisees. Jesus told the people to do as they say, but not as they do. You are saying get baptized so you will be saved. I am saying get baptized because you are saved. My trust is in what Christ has done alone. You are saying what Christ has done plus repenting and getting water baptized.
When John the Baptist was baptizing and the Pharisees showed up, John asked them where was their fruit meet for repentance? What is he asking concerning them?
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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turbosixx said:
How does one receive the benefits? What must I do to be saved?
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John 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
 
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turbosixx

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Cameron143 said:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

When Jesus was asked what works should be done that they might work the works of God...John 6...what was His response? He told them to believe. Why? Because what we believe, we do. What we say doesn't always reflect what we do. This was a problem for the Pharisees. Jesus told the people to do as they say, but not as they do. You are saying get baptized so you will be saved. I am saying get baptized because you are saved. My trust is in what Christ has done alone. You are saying what Christ has done plus repenting and getting water baptized.
When John the Baptist was baptizing and the Pharisees showed up, John asked them where was their fruit meet for repentance? What is he asking concerning them?
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John 6 and John the Baptist were before the gospel.
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

Today we are saved by the gospel.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
What must I do to be saved?
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

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tylerbones1313 said:
Trust me on this if, Jesus Christ by His Divine power, can turn water to wine, he most certainly can turn dessert into water. Don't put limits on the Almighty.
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This is a silly answer. I was saved FOR SURE before I was baptized in water. As a matter of fact I was baptized once in water and was FOR SURE NOT saved, but this isn't my point. I was baptized as an outward sign to others AFTER I was saved. This is a false teaching that we have to be water baptized to be saved, it is a lie plain and simple. My salvation proves to me this isn't true and I will testify this loud and for His glory, every single one of you claiming water baptism is a NECESSITY to be saved are just wrong plain and simple.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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turbosixx said:
John 6 and John the Baptist were before the gospel.
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

Today we are saved by the gospel.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
What must I do to be saved?
Click to expand...
I already told you...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
T

turbosixx

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Cameron143 said:
I already told you...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
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You told me what you say but you haven't proved it by scripture.

IF to believe is all that is required, when Jesus instituted water baptism He would have said, "whoever believes will be saved" but that isn't what He said. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, Words are how information is communicated.
I'll stick with the words of Jesus, not yours until you can prove otherwise.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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turbosixx said:
You told me what you say but you haven't proved it by scripture.

IF to believe is all that is required, when Jesus instituted water baptism He would have said, "whoever believes will be saved" but that isn't what He said. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, Words are how information is communicated.
I'll stick with the words of Jesus, not yours until you can prove otherwise.
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I have shown you. So have others. You simply don't receive it.
 
CS1

CS1

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Are we greater than our Lord? "Believe and Be baptized." The first sign that you love the Lord after being saved is to be obedient and baptized. Why would anyone not want to be baptized?
 
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turbosixx

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Cameron143 said:
I have shown you. So have others. You simply don't receive it.
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What I've been shown is people have somehow been convinced not to believe what Jesus says.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
I put my trust in Jesus' words.

This baptism discussion looks familiar to me
God: for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Satan: the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

Peter: baptism now saves you
Man: Baptism cannot save you
 
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turbosixx

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CS1 said:
Are we greater than our Lord? "Believe and Be baptized." The first sign that you love the Lord after being saved is to be obedient and baptized. Why would anyone not want to be baptized?
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I suggest it is not a sign of being saved. No where in scripture are we told it's "an outward showing" or it's a sign. It is how we are added to Christ and are therefore saved. If baptism comes after being saved, Jesus would have said so, but He doesn't.

Do you believe this
The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved;
or this
The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved;
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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turbosixx said:
What I've been shown is people have somehow been convinced not to believe what Jesus says.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
I put my trust in Jesus' words.

This baptism discussion looks familiar to me
God: for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Satan: the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

Peter: baptism now saves you
Man: Baptism cannot save you
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I'm well aware of your reasoning. But it's poor reasoning. Adam and Eve did die. Noone has ever been saved by water baptism.
 
CS1

CS1

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turbosixx said:
I suggest it is not a sign of being saved. No where in scripture are we told it's "an outward showing" or it's a sign. It is how we are added to Christ and are therefore saved. If baptism comes after being saved, Jesus would have said so, but He doesn't.

Do you believe this
The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved;
or this
The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved;
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how about Obedience?
 
B

ByTheGraceOfGod

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NightTwister said:
Who are these mystery Christians who don't want to be baptized? I certainly am not aware of any.
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We know those who refuse to get baptized for their rotten fruit which they burn forever if they don't get baptized and produce good fruit.
 
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