The Apostleship Of Paul...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,287
6,628
113
62
#81
I do think it is better, to clarify this issue.

There is no question that Paul defined the gospel of Jesus Christ, in detail.

Paul explained the Christian life, also in detail.

Paul listed Church doctrine, in detail.

No other author in the New Testament provided any detail about our salvation.

The book of Revelation is a huge letter, lots of words. The book of Revelation is not a primary source of Christian doctrine.
Rather, the book of Revelation pertains to future events.

Mere word count in the New Testament actually is a distraction.
...one thousand five hundred eighty four, one thousand five hundred eighty five, one thousand five hundred...what? Now you tell me?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,279
29,553
113
#82
I do think it is better, to clarify this issue.

There is no question that Paul defined the gospel of Jesus Christ, in detail.

Paul explained the Christian life, also in detail.

Paul listed Church doctrine, in detail.

No other author in the New Testament provided any detail about our salvation.

The book of Revelation is a huge letter, lots of words. The book of Revelation is not a primary source of Christian doctrine.
Rather, the book of Revelation pertains to future events.

Mere word count in the New Testament actually is a distraction.
None of that is relevant to the point.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,279
29,553
113
#83
...one thousand five hundred eighty four, one thousand five hundred eighty five, one thousand five hundred...what? Now you tell me?
N6 has six thimbles full of water. I have a gallon of water. N6 says he has more because it is his six containers to my one. In what universe would anyone accept that six thimbles full of anything is a greater volume than a gallon of the same thing?
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
6,233
2,527
113
#84
Yes, really. Based on the word counts of the 1769 edition of KJV from Bible stats, here’s how it works out:

BOOK . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WORDS

Romans . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9422 words
1 Corinthians
. . . . . . . . . . 9462 words
2 Corinthians
. . . . . . . . . . 6046 words
Galatians
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .3084 words
Ephesians
. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3022 words
Philippians
. . . . . . . . . . . . 2183 words
Colossians
. . . . . . . . . . . . .1979 words
1 Thessalonians
. . . . . . . 1837 words
2 Thessalonians
. . . . . . . 1022 words
1 Timothy
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .2244 words
2 Timothy
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .1666 words
Titus
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .896 words
Philemon
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .430 words
Hebrews
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6897 words

Total words written by Paul: 50,190 words. Total words in the New Testament: 179,011

So Paul wrote 50190/179011 or 28% of the NT. source

This even includes Hebrews, which is generally considered of unknown authorship,
so 28% is a fairly generous account/amount. Your method leaves much to be desired.
I don't ascribe Hebrews to Paul. Where the writer was obviously very familiar with Sifre and Talmud as well as the scriptures...it wasn't Paul. Paul always put his name in his writings....and there is only one old copy that attributes it to either Barnabus or Bartholomew but I can't remember which of the two men.

At either end...Hebrews is also not written in a "Pauline" manner.
See Wescott and Horte for a more full explanation of the book and how it is decidedly different from Paul's writings.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,287
6,628
113
62
#85
N6 has six thimbles full of water. I have a gallon of water. N6 says he has more because it is his six containers to my one. In what universe would anyone accept that six thimbles full of anything is a greater volume than a gallon of the same thing?
N6 has huge hands?
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,972
870
113
#86
...one thousand five hundred eighty four, one thousand five hundred eighty five, one thousand five hundred...what? Now you tell me?
I did not understand your question?
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
1,055
447
83
#88
...one thousand five hundred eighty four, one thousand five hundred eighty five, one thousand five hundred...what? Now you tell me?
I think that you forgot to carry a 1 somewhere...?
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,972
870
113
#89
Precious friends, are these the four current views of the apostles?:

1) There are twelve, including Matthias (replacing Judas),
Paul not being an apostle?

2) There are twelve, the eleven being in error, choosing Matthias,
instead of Paul?

3) There are thirteen, including Matthias and Paul, all preaching/teaching
the same [ homogenized ] thing?

4) a) There are twelve, according To God's Prophecy / Covenants / Law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

b) There is One, According To God's Mystery / Grace ( preaching / teaching
Different things )
------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified in the following study:

"
...there is perhaps no place where Paul sets his apostleship forth in stronger
terms than in the first chapter of his epistle to the Galatians, especially in the
very first verse. As you read these opening words, you can almost hear the
thunder in the apostle’s voice as he declares in his opening salvo,

“Paul, an apostle, ( not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ,
and God the Father, Who raised Him from the dead; )” (Gal. 1:1)...​
...Paul didn’t always open his epistles by asserting his apostleship (cf. Rom. 1:1;
Phil. 1:1; etc.), but the Galatians suffered from the same spiritual malady that
afflicts many Christians today—they doubted Paul’s apostolic authority! So
Paul comes out swinging in this epistle by declaring his authority as an
apostle of God. As he himself affirmed,

“in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles” (II Cor. 12:11).​

Who were they? The Lord’s chiefest apostles were Peter, James, and John, men
who are mentioned ten times in Scripture apart from the twelve. Of those three
chiefs, Peter was the chiefest of the chiefs, but Paul was “not a whit behind” him
either (II Cor. 11:5).

But if Paul’s apostleship was equal to Peter’s, and no higher, why do we follow
Paul
? Surely it is because Peter was the apostle of the circumcision, and Paul
was the apostle of the uncircumcision (Gal. 2:8). It is important for a believer
to know who his apostle is!...

...since most of them [ christians ] believe that Paul’s apostleship is of no more
consequence to us than the apostleship of Peter, James, and John, they are forced
to conclude that Paul’s message must be the same as these chief apostles. The
problem with this is that they know that Chief Apostle Peter taught water baptism
was required for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), while Paul claimed he wasn’t
sent to baptize at all (I Cor. 1:17).

Since most Christians believe that Peter and Paul are of equal authority for
believers today, they have to figure out a way to homogenize these two opposite
and contradictory messages. As you probably know, the solution at which they have
arrived is to conclude, “We’ll still baptize people, just not for the remission of sins!”

In the same vein, most Christians know that Paul taught that if you are saved,
The Lord has already forgiven you “all trespasses” (Col. 2:13). But they also know
that Chief Apostle John teaches that The Lord is “faithful and just to forgive us
our sins” if we confess them (I John 1:9). So to homogenize these two opposite
and contradictory messages they conclude that believers are forgiven when
they get saved, they just need a little more forgiveness when they sin!

This despite the fact that forgiveness of sins is something that every believer
receives the moment he gets saved, along with salvation, justification, and
redemption. Most Christians wouldn’t think of asking for more salvation,
justification, or redemption when they sin, but asking for more forgiveness
is the only way to get Paul and John to say the same thing.

Finally, most Christians know that Paul asserts that salvation is By Grace Through
faith
without works (Rom. 4:5), but they also know that Chief Apostle James is just
as adamant that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:20). So to homogenize
these two opposite and contradictory messages they conclude that Paul is talking
about justification before God while James is addressing the issue of justification
before men, even though The Lord never asked anyone to be justified before
men—in fact, He condemned it (Luke 16:15)!

And on and on it goes, as futile attempts are made to try to blend Paul’s unique
message with the teachings of the Lord’s chiefest apostles, the other writers of
the New Testament...
" (R Kurth)

Full study 'link': The Apostleship Of Paul

Amen.

View attachment 257915
You cannot deny that in the end, we are saved by the grace of God alone.

The hallmark of the New Testament is the reconciliation established for us, by Christ alone!

The second hallmark is that we are ultimately saved by grace.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

As for James being in conflict with Paul.

James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

James is not really in conflict with Paul. For some reason, people misunderstand the letter of James.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,287
6,628
113
62
#90
N6 has six thimbles full of water. I have a gallon of water. N6 says he has more because it is his six containers to my one. In what universe would anyone accept that six thimbles full of anything is a greater volume than a gallon of the same thing?
Of course. Maybe three pairs of his fingerless gloves can warm more fingers than your one pair of regular gloves.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,287
6,628
113
62
#91
I think that you forgot to carry a 1 somewhere...?
Where were you awhile ago when that would have come in handy? I'm no longer required to count. Imagine me a distraction. Smh
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,279
29,553
113
#92
.
I don't ascribe Hebrews to Paul. Where the writer was obviously very familiar with Sifre and Talmud as well as the scriptures...it wasn't Paul. Paul always put his name i his writings....and there is only one old copy that attributes it to either Barnabus or Bartholomew but I can't remember which of the two men.

At either end...Hebrews is also not written in a "Pauline" manner.
See Wescott and Horte for a more full explanation of the book and how it is decidedly different from Paul's writings.
Well that just means Paul wrote less than 28% which is even further from greater than 50%. Perhaps let N6 know. I have corrected him quite a few times but he never acknowledges it nor expresses any gratitude for being corrected. I think he must be allergic to thinking he could ever be wrong.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,972
870
113
#93
Precious friends, are these the four current views of the apostles?:

1) There are twelve, including Matthias (replacing Judas),
Paul not being an apostle?

2) There are twelve, the eleven being in error, choosing Matthias,
instead of Paul?

3) There are thirteen, including Matthias and Paul, all preaching/teaching
the same [ homogenized ] thing?

4) a) There are twelve, according To God's Prophecy / Covenants / Law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

b) There is One, According To God's Mystery / Grace ( preaching / teaching
Different things )
------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified in the following study:

"
...there is perhaps no place where Paul sets his apostleship forth in stronger
terms than in the first chapter of his epistle to the Galatians, especially in the
very first verse. As you read these opening words, you can almost hear the
thunder in the apostle’s voice as he declares in his opening salvo,

“Paul, an apostle, ( not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ,
and God the Father, Who raised Him from the dead; )” (Gal. 1:1)...​
...Paul didn’t always open his epistles by asserting his apostleship (cf. Rom. 1:1;
Phil. 1:1; etc.), but the Galatians suffered from the same spiritual malady that
afflicts many Christians today—they doubted Paul’s apostolic authority! So
Paul comes out swinging in this epistle by declaring his authority as an
apostle of God. As he himself affirmed,

“in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles” (II Cor. 12:11).​

Who were they? The Lord’s chiefest apostles were Peter, James, and John, men
who are mentioned ten times in Scripture apart from the twelve. Of those three
chiefs, Peter was the chiefest of the chiefs, but Paul was “not a whit behind” him
either (II Cor. 11:5).

But if Paul’s apostleship was equal to Peter’s, and no higher, why do we follow
Paul
? Surely it is because Peter was the apostle of the circumcision, and Paul
was the apostle of the uncircumcision (Gal. 2:8). It is important for a believer
to know who his apostle is!...

...since most of them [ christians ] believe that Paul’s apostleship is of no more
consequence to us than the apostleship of Peter, James, and John, they are forced
to conclude that Paul’s message must be the same as these chief apostles. The
problem with this is that they know that Chief Apostle Peter taught water baptism
was required for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), while Paul claimed he wasn’t
sent to baptize at all (I Cor. 1:17).

Since most Christians believe that Peter and Paul are of equal authority for
believers today, they have to figure out a way to homogenize these two opposite
and contradictory messages. As you probably know, the solution at which they have
arrived is to conclude, “We’ll still baptize people, just not for the remission of sins!”

In the same vein, most Christians know that Paul taught that if you are saved,
The Lord has already forgiven you “all trespasses” (Col. 2:13). But they also know
that Chief Apostle John teaches that The Lord is “faithful and just to forgive us
our sins” if we confess them (I John 1:9). So to homogenize these two opposite
and contradictory messages they conclude that believers are forgiven when
they get saved, they just need a little more forgiveness when they sin!

This despite the fact that forgiveness of sins is something that every believer
receives the moment he gets saved, along with salvation, justification, and
redemption. Most Christians wouldn’t think of asking for more salvation,
justification, or redemption when they sin, but asking for more forgiveness
is the only way to get Paul and John to say the same thing.

Finally, most Christians know that Paul asserts that salvation is By Grace Through
faith
without works (Rom. 4:5), but they also know that Chief Apostle James is just
as adamant that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:20). So to homogenize
these two opposite and contradictory messages they conclude that Paul is talking
about justification before God while James is addressing the issue of justification
before men, even though The Lord never asked anyone to be justified before
men—in fact, He condemned it (Luke 16:15)!

And on and on it goes, as futile attempts are made to try to blend Paul’s unique
message with the teachings of the Lord’s chiefest apostles, the other writers of
the New Testament...
" (R Kurth)

Full study 'link': The Apostleship Of Paul

Amen.

View attachment 257915
Here is another possible misunderstanding that may arise when reading the New Testament.

FAITH and WORKS.

Christian works are impossible without first receiving the Holy Spirit. So how can someone receive the Holy Spirit,
in order to embark on their works? Of course, to become a Christian one must believe in the death and resurrection
of Jesus Christ. Only after a person believes can they then receive the Holy Spirit. It follows, that works flow from the
in filling of the Holy Spirit.

Hence, by grace through faith, then works.

Does anyone care to expound on Faith plus Works for salvation?

There is only one way to be saved but a hundred ways, to lose your salvation.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,972
870
113
#94
The translation of apostle is rather simple and known by most, it means to be sent out..
Not an easy definition to establish, the definition of an apostle.

Some say an 'eyewitness of Jesus'. Paul was not an eyewitness of Jesus during the earthly ministry of Jesus.
To be sent is another definition that, may or may not, be true. Some folk in the Old Testament were sent to
tell cities to repent. Not sure if those folk were apostles?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,164
5,727
113
#96
I have been a Christian for 35+ years, and I still haven't learned to rejoice in suffering. It just shows how weak I am compared with Paul and the early church disciples.

Colossians 1:24

King James Version

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

I just have a hard time comprehending this, brother, and maybe it's because I've never had to face intense persecution for Christ, who provides the grace and strength we need to endure and actually rejoice. Look at Paul's attitude: he found joy in his suffering for the church and "the afflictions of Christ", and Paul refers to the church as the body of Christ. When one member suffers, all the other members suffer as well.

Acts 5:41

King James Version

41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Unbelievable from a human standpoint. Have you reached this level of maturity yet, Pilgrim, where you rejoice when you suffer and face persecution for Jesus?
it’s amazing to really listen to those epistles and records in acts .

the worst persecution I’ve ever faced brother was insults and personal words . I’ve never considered tbat persecution but just a bi product of a Christian in this world I’ve never been imprisoned or beaten or anyth g like that for Christ .

But imagine brother how much they believes after walking with Jesus and learning from him being gifted as chosen apostles they believed in eternal life

and the difference is they lived like that was thier goal and hope and it was true and real and sure

“Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep your's also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:20‬ ‭

Jesus told them a few times if they were following his word they would be persecuted just as he was

One day I hope to sit on a hill and chat with Paul , or Peter , John they have impressed me greatly and inspire also to reach further
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,429
6,707
113
#98
Not an easy definition to establish, the definition of an apostle.

Some say an 'eyewitness of Jesus'. Paul was not an eyewitness of Jesus during the earthly ministry of Jesus.
To be sent is another definition that, may or may not, be true. Some folk in the Old Testament were sent to
tell cities to repent. Not sure if those folk were apostles?
My post relates strictly to the meaning of the word, not to the additional meaning given to the Chosen Twelve, whose names shall be inscribed upon the twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,360
3,161
113
#99
Precious friends, are these the four current views of the apostles?:

1) There are twelve, including Matthias (replacing Judas),
Paul not being an apostle?

2) There are twelve, the eleven being in error, choosing Matthias,
instead of Paul?

3) There are thirteen, including Matthias and Paul, all preaching/teaching
the same [ homogenized ] thing?

4) a) There are twelve, according To God's Prophecy / Covenants / Law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

b) There is One, According To God's Mystery / Grace ( preaching / teaching
Different things )
------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified in the following study:

"
...there is perhaps no place where Paul sets his apostleship forth in stronger
terms than in the first chapter of his epistle to the Galatians, especially in the
very first verse. As you read these opening words, you can almost hear the
thunder in the apostle’s voice as he declares in his opening salvo,

“Paul, an apostle, ( not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ,
and God the Father, Who raised Him from the dead; )” (Gal. 1:1)...​
...Paul didn’t always open his epistles by asserting his apostleship (cf. Rom. 1:1;
Phil. 1:1; etc.), but the Galatians suffered from the same spiritual malady that
afflicts many Christians today—they doubted Paul’s apostolic authority! So
Paul comes out swinging in this epistle by declaring his authority as an
apostle of God. As he himself affirmed,

“in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles” (II Cor. 12:11).​

Who were they? The Lord’s chiefest apostles were Peter, James, and John, men
who are mentioned ten times in Scripture apart from the twelve. Of those three
chiefs, Peter was the chiefest of the chiefs, but Paul was “not a whit behind” him
either (II Cor. 11:5).

But if Paul’s apostleship was equal to Peter’s, and no higher, why do we follow
Paul
? Surely it is because Peter was the apostle of the circumcision, and Paul
was the apostle of the uncircumcision (Gal. 2:8). It is important for a believer
to know who his apostle is!...

...since most of them [ christians ] believe that Paul’s apostleship is of no more
consequence to us than the apostleship of Peter, James, and John, they are forced
to conclude that Paul’s message must be the same as these chief apostles. The
problem with this is that they know that Chief Apostle Peter taught water baptism
was required for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), while Paul claimed he wasn’t
sent to baptize at all (I Cor. 1:17).

Since most Christians believe that Peter and Paul are of equal authority for
believers today, they have to figure out a way to homogenize these two opposite
and contradictory messages. As you probably know, the solution at which they have
arrived is to conclude, “We’ll still baptize people, just not for the remission of sins!”

In the same vein, most Christians know that Paul taught that if you are saved,
The Lord has already forgiven you “all trespasses” (Col. 2:13). But they also know
that Chief Apostle John teaches that The Lord is “faithful and just to forgive us
our sins” if we confess them (I John 1:9). So to homogenize these two opposite
and contradictory messages they conclude that believers are forgiven when
they get saved, they just need a little more forgiveness when they sin!

This despite the fact that forgiveness of sins is something that every believer
receives the moment he gets saved, along with salvation, justification, and
redemption. Most Christians wouldn’t think of asking for more salvation,
justification, or redemption when they sin, but asking for more forgiveness
is the only way to get Paul and John to say the same thing.

Finally, most Christians know that Paul asserts that salvation is By Grace Through
faith
without works (Rom. 4:5), but they also know that Chief Apostle James is just
as adamant that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:20). So to homogenize
these two opposite and contradictory messages they conclude that Paul is talking
about justification before God while James is addressing the issue of justification
before men, even though The Lord never asked anyone to be justified before
men—in fact, He condemned it (Luke 16:15)!

And on and on it goes, as futile attempts are made to try to blend Paul’s unique
message with the teachings of the Lord’s chiefest apostles, the other writers of
the New Testament...
" (R Kurth)

Full study 'link': The Apostleship Of Paul

Amen.

View attachment 257915
Either Paul's writings are scripture or they are not. God is not contradictory. Any apparent contradictions are flaws in our understanding.
1 Peter 3:15-17
"Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing.…"
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
6,233
2,527
113
Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles...
The Apostles in Jerusalem met with Paul and agreed that he was an Apostle and Peter himself testified about Paul in his letter.
Paul was the thirteenth Apostle.

There were 13 tribes of Israel.
And
13 Apostles

However....Biblical literature always says 12 because 1 is never counted, numbered or measured. The first of anything belongs to God. It is the whole concept pushed forward in the "Baker's Dozen ". (Which has been going on for centuries)

All around the globe, if you are lost, broken and need help if you find a bakery you have found an "in" to the Christian community in that area. That's just the way it has been for centuries and I don't see that changing at this point.

And since Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles....that means US...he is our Apostle. If you don't have an Apostle, Jesus might have some harsh words for you about respecting the authority placed over you by Him.

Paul's dictates and commands line up perfectly with scriptures and have become scriptures. There is no finer way to give apostolic authority than to author scripture....and Paul has done that.

Not all of Paul's letters were made scriptures and his "lost letters" have never been lost in truth....just largely unpublished. But they say the exact same things as the letters in scriptures so it isn't like we don't know what's in them.