Is there really demons, angels and a Devil or is God in control of these things himself? Us and Him.

[Blain]

@Fundaamental Hey buddy long time no see that is bad a lot has been going on in my life a lot of hectic things with adult protective services being call for me by my neighbor my family is trying to gain legal custody of me and other legal things that I can't really get into.

But the spiritual realm exists both in our worl and also not in our reality it is not just one plane of existance and in the the spiritual realm you don't think or react like you do here there are not those doubts and conflicting thoughts you speak think and act based on what is in your heart it is the real you. this is when you go to the spiritual realm but there also exists a spiritual realm is intertwined to ours this is where those spiritual beings see and hear us this is the realm we fight in.

Your words and actions matter they see it all and will not hesitate to use it against you in some way, but this also is where our prayers our faith our willingness to stand in Christ as more than conquerors as ambassaders as kings queeens and children of God have all the authority of the kingdom most just know understand this.

They are weak they have no say if you in Christ say anything standing in the rights given to you by being grafted into the kingdom then they have no choice because instead instead of seeing you they see him with feirce fire and shudder.

It's not about energy or any other concept we can think of it is entirely spiritual from the battles we wage to the prayers for a miracle

 

[Nehemiah6]

Did God also write a dictionary? It would be most helpful.

Suddenly this ancient thread has come to life. But now we are seeing trivia as above. Who do you think enabled Adam to name every creature?

 

[Cameron143]

Suddenly this ancient thread has come to life. But now we are seeing trivia as above. Who do you think enabled Adam to name every creature?

I'm not sure what the ancient thread is. Perhaps you can explain further. And I'm happy to answer your question but I'll hold off until I understand what you are conveying.
I will say, if you read anything into my comment other than it was a joke, you read far past my intended meaning.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I'm not sure what the ancient thread is.

This thread is from June 28, 2020. Since it was a joke on your part, let's leave it at that. No harm done.

 

[Cameron143]

This thread is from June 28, 2020. Since it was a joke on your part, let's leave it at that. No harm done.

I see. I didn't revive it, although I'm not against threads being revived. And there's nothing new under the sun so every new thread isn't actually new.

 

[wolfwint]

Did God also write a dictionary? It would be most helpful.

Ask Him!
It seems to me sometimes that people mean they can explain how God is. (What is presently not possible.) And put Him then under their understanding.
He wrote enough, for us to understand through his Holy Spirit. If we do not understand it is not his fool.
But we can be shure that he did not revealed everything to us. To accept this is better, then to going lost in our Imaginations.

 

[Cameron143]

Ask Him!
It seems to me sometimes that people mean they can explain how God is. (What is presently not possible.) And put Him then under their understanding.
He wrote enough, for us to understand through his Holy Spirit. If we do not understand it is not his fool.
But we can be shure that he did not revealed everything to us. To accept this is better, then to going lost in our Imaginations.

It was just a joke. Ascribing anything more is to go beyond my intention.

 

[NightTwister]

Did God also write a dictionary? It would be most helpful.

The English dictionarie of 1623. It was re-inspired not long after the 1611 KJV.

 

[Fundaamental]

@Fundaamental Hey buddy long time no see that is bad a lot has been going on in my life a lot of hectic things with adult protective services being call for me by my neighbor my family is trying to gain legal custody of me and other legal things that I can't really get into.

But the spiritual realm exists both in our worl and also not in our reality it is not just one plane of existance and in the the spiritual realm you don't think or react like you do here there are not those doubts and conflicting thoughts you speak think and act based on what is in your heart it is the real you. this is when you go to the spiritual realm but there also exists a spiritual realm is intertwined to ours this is where those spiritual beings see and hear us this is the realm we fight in.

Your words and actions matter they see it all and will not hesitate to use it against you in some way, but this also is where our prayers our faith our willingness to stand in Christ as more than conquerors as ambassaders as kings queeens and children of God have all the authority of the kingdom most just know understand this.

They are weak they have no say if you in Christ say anything standing in the rights given to you by being grafted into the kingdom then they have no choice because instead instead of seeing you they see him with feirce fire and shudder.

It's not about energy or any other concept we can think of it is entirely spiritual from the battles we wage to the prayers for a miracle

hey mate I always wonder how are you are every time I come on,

I haven't been visiting cc for a few months, as I've had no spare time to my self, my life has been hectic to. i enjoy our discussions, they always feel warm and interesting.

Your one of not so many people here I can have a discussion with, I only come here is to have a discussion, but as you know it's difficult at times.

Some people need a lot of help because the art of discussion has been lost,

Anyhow I was just putting an idea across because after a life time of me having dreams and what ever I dream happens in real life, I got to wondering just how is that even possible, or could something cause that to happen.

Obviously one theory is God is making that happen..

But then with what I can dream and what can come true this part has me wondering.

My second theory was the first idea I explained before, that perhaps im constantly going into an energy field that effects time it's self, that is caused by theese demons getting in my energy field.

As you know from the bible demons are physical so the invisible matter that they are made of is a physical matter, but yet it's invisible.

It's obviously a matter that is completely different to the matter that us humans are made of.

And I never hear of human spiritual ghosts being physical, it's always demons.

 

[Blain]

hey mate I always wonder how are you are every time I come on,

I haven't been visiting cc for a few months, as I've had no spare time to my self, my life has been hectic to. i enjoy our discussions, they always feel warm and interesting.

Your one of not so many people here I can have a discussion with, I only come here is to have a discussion, but as you know it's difficult at times.

Some people need a lot of help because the art of discussion has been lost,

Anyhow I was just putting an idea across because after a life time of me having dreams and what ever I dream happens in real life, I got to wondering just how is that even possible, or could something cause that to happen.

Obviously one theory is God is making that happen..

But then with what I can dream and what can come true this part has me wondering.

My second theory was the first idea I explained before, that perhaps im constantly going into an energy field that effects time it's self, that is caused by theese demons getting in my energy field.

As you know from the bible demons are physical so the invisible matter that they are made of is a physical matter, but yet it's invisible.

It's obviously a matter that is completely different to the matter that us humans are made of.

And I never hear of human spiritual ghosts being physical, it's always demons.

I understand have had a difficult time coming on cc as well, and yeah I understand all to well about discusiions it has been an issue since I joined in 2012 but in away I am thankful because had this place been nothing about debate divsion and honestly what I have refered to as the feild of blood I wouldn'y have seen this compared this to scripture to how the bible says it is to be and sough after the real thing. and when I got ataste of the real thing and even though people constantly mocked me called me deulsional a false prophet I expereinced him in a way that changed everything he was real here and now to the point if moving in with me I recieved what he really is because of how cc is the things I could tell you the body mind and spirit that is sudeenly no longer human but a unity with his the true truth of us and him my heart shouts to the sky constantly to him in words that cannot be spoken the love the tender heart tears that fall the heart piercing enarment you send to him even in my dreams I do this to him.

Whatever level of bad there is is there just as equal the good i could go on for hours the love and warmth the intimacy the no longer being seperate from him all because of how the bdf is.

So take heart what littlke glimmer of light you can find hold on to it because I can testify how that small bit of light in the midst of darkness can bring forth absolute wonder.

What you say is energy I call the spiritual even scientifically there is clearly an energy of sorts that we have even if in the human mind which if you didn't know scientists are not even 25 percent sure how it works especiallly the consciousness that still is a vast mystery to scientists

The spiritual is even more out of grasp as it doesn't align or work with how the physical mind or brain does or reality itself why else is his thought not or our thoughts?

I have encountered what is known as shadow people I sensed it's presence in my room but when it actually lunged at me it physically held my throat my chest was being physically crushed and though I tried to say the name Jesus it held my tongue. how one can be both spiritual yet physical makes no sense except when you consider that is literally what we are as children of God

We are both spiritual and flesh in Christ the demon can manifest physically as well as angels these three groups have one thing in common being both physical and spiritual. Has anyone ever considered why that is or why we who are flesh and bones can operate in the spiritual even if withcraft or faith? Or why angelic beings can produce seeds in women they lust after? No of course not because we read the word as print as words as ink on paper that is why one can so easily go into debates use scripture as if it is proof what you say is legit or to use it so casually as if it sin't the actual very words of God to attack or prove others wrong or prove yourself right unless you use scriptire people see you as wrong lacking not of the truth

It sickens me, if this is the sacred holy word of God how can anyone who claims this use it so casually so easily without reverence? All this division this confusion thios based on doctrine denomiation interpretation and your telling me this is truth? is God's word so little it can be twisted used interpretated based on ourselves? and we have the nerve to call ourselves seekers of truth students of the word? is the seeds od the enemy that illusive? can a kingdom against itself stand or not?

Sorry I just cannot and will not accept this this isn't a game to me I don't care if I am right or wrong I am after him the the real thing and I have been going through more sprirtual warfar more of life beatening me down more suffering and despair thsn can I have to explain all because I dared to believe I dared to seek the real thing how many times I have almost died because of it how many times I have gone hungry rsorting to eating dog food but I wasn't kidding about this I was dead serious I knew the cost but at the end of the day all it is my heart says is it was always him.

The word of God who he is why we fight why we seek the truth these things to me are sacred holy precious I do not take them lightly and I have to pay for it but Anyone here on cc who can look inaide and accept the cosat that comes with finding true life true heart peircing heart bleeding love and affection who is truly serious about this knows how life the enemy circumstances can and will come against you but if your heart still showers him with such deep heart percing love endearment and affection they know him they are of him they will see far past the average so called students of the word they will knoiw him in ways no one else will but everyone has to cut the crap they want to know God then listen to those who have a taste and mind you this only a taste
Sorry I just had to say all of this

 

[TheLearner]

@Fundaamental Hey buddy long time no see that is bad a lot has been going on in my life a lot of hectic things with adult protective services being call for me by my neighbor my family is trying to gain legal custody of me and other legal things that I can't really get into.

But the spiritual realm exists both in our worl and also not in our reality it is not just one plane of existance and in the the spiritual realm you don't think or react like you do here there are not those doubts and conflicting thoughts you speak think and act based on what is in your heart it is the real you. this is when you go to the spiritual realm but there also exists a spiritual realm is intertwined to ours this is where those spiritual beings see and hear us this is the realm we fight in.

Your words and actions matter they see it all and will not hesitate to use it against you in some way, but this also is where our prayers our faith our willingness to stand in Christ as more than conquerors as ambassaders as kings queeens and children of God have all the authority of the kingdom most just know understand this.

They are weak they have no say if you in Christ say anything standing in the rights given to you by being grafted into the kingdom then they have no choice because instead instead of seeing you they see him with feirce fire and shudder.

It's not about energy or any other concept we can think of it is entirely spiritual from the battles we wage to the prayers for a miracle

Waht rights friend?

 

[Fundaamental]

I understand have had a difficult time coming on cc as well, and yeah I understand all to well about discusiions it has been an issue since I joined in 2012 but in away I am thankful because had this place been nothing about debate divsion and honestly what I have refered to as the feild of blood I wouldn'y have seen this compared this to scripture to how the bible says it is to be and sough after the real thing. and when I got ataste of the real thing and even though people constantly mocked me called me deulsional a false prophet I expereinced him in a way that changed everything he was real here and now to the point if moving in with me I recieved what he really is because of how cc is the things I could tell you the body mind and spirit that is sudeenly no longer human but a unity with his the true truth of us and him my heart shouts to the sky constantly to him in words that cannot be spoken the love the tender heart tears that fall the heart piercing enarment you send to him even in my dreams I do this to him.

Whatever level of bad there is is there just as equal the good i could go on for hours the love and warmth the intimacy the no longer being seperate from him all because of how the bdf is.

So take heart what littlke glimmer of light you can find hold on to it because I can testify how that small bit of light in the midst of darkness can bring forth absolute wonder.

What you say is energy I call the spiritual even scientifically there is clearly an energy of sorts that we have even if in the human mind which if you didn't know scientists are not even 25 percent sure how it works especiallly the consciousness that still is a vast mystery to scientists

The spiritual is even more out of grasp as it doesn't align or work with how the physical mind or brain does or reality itself why else is his thought not or our thoughts?

I have encountered what is known as shadow people I sensed it's presence in my room but when it actually lunged at me it physically held my throat my chest was being physically crushed and though I tried to say the name Jesus it held my tongue. how one can be both spiritual yet physical makes no sense except when you consider that is literally what we are as children of God

We are both spiritual and flesh in Christ the demon can manifest physically as well as angels these three groups have one thing in common being both physical and spiritual. Has anyone ever considered why that is or why we who are flesh and bones can operate in the spiritual even if withcraft or faith? Or why angelic beings can produce seeds in women they lust after? No of course not because we read the word as print as words as ink on paper that is why one can so easily go into debates use scripture as if it is proof what you say is legit or to use it so casually as if it sin't the actual very words of God to attack or prove others wrong or prove yourself right unless you use scriptire people see you as wrong lacking not of the truth

It sickens me, if this is the sacred holy word of God how can anyone who claims this use it so casually so easily without reverence? All this division this confusion thios based on doctrine denomiation interpretation and your telling me this is truth? is God's word so little it can be twisted used interpretated based on ourselves? and we have the nerve to call ourselves seekers of truth students of the word? is the seeds od the enemy that illusive? can a kingdom against itself stand or not?

Sorry I just cannot and will not accept this this isn't a game to me I don't care if I am right or wrong I am after him the the real thing and I have been going through more sprirtual warfar more of life beatening me down more suffering and despair thsn can I have to explain all because I dared to believe I dared to seek the real thing how many times I have almost died because of it how many times I have gone hungry rsorting to eating dog food but I wasn't kidding about this I was dead serious I knew the cost but at the end of the day all it is my heart says is it was always him.

The word of God who he is why we fight why we seek the truth these things to me are sacred holy precious I do not take them lightly and I have to pay for it but Anyone here on cc who can look inaide and accept the cosat that comes with finding true life true heart peircing heart bleeding love and affection who is truly serious about this knows how life the enemy circumstances can and will come against you but if your heart still showers him with such deep heart percing love endearment and affection they know him they are of him they will see far past the average so called students of the word they will knoiw him in ways no one else will but everyone has to cut the crap they want to know God then listen to those who have a taste and mind you this only a taste
Sorry I just had to say all of this

I can fully relate to all, i get the feeling more than ever theese days that if satan is attempting to influence you, it's because something special is happening between your self and God,

And also if your getting a satan angry you must be something right 👍.

They seems to get more physical when you get weak,
I've recently just changed my diet, to a keto diets which basically having every meal as 60 percent healthy unfried fats 30 percent healthy protein from steamed meat only, and then only ten percent lightly steamed carbs which will consist of low glycemic carbs and berries mainly

What a difference its made to my well being, the amount of energy I have theese days is the best I've ever had

Theese demos have been goin mad trying to get me to change my diet for weeks lol.

I know people will laugh at that and say demons are not interested in your diet but there so wrong.

I know they love monster munch lol

 

[Adstar]

If in Job it says that Satan presents himself before God and God gives him clear instructions and boundaries, doesn't that mean that God is in control?

Yes God is in ultimate control.. But there are things God is long suffering towards and things that God wills for us to believe and follow.. Two very different things.. Just because God suffers rebellion for a time does not mean God is the author or caused that rebellion..

Isn't this a parable like all of the scripture? God reveals himself in a mystery so the people that seek him during their life can be given multifaceted wisdom and become friends of God, like Abraham.

You're going to have to define some terms.. What is ""multifaceted wisdom"" ?

I do not believe all of Scripture is a Parable.. Some of it is.. But most of it is clear cut teachings..

If God is unlimited in power and nothing is impossible; if things are predestined and foreknown, can't you conclude that even if God creates and leaves things alone, in knowing that all things will happen in the future, if he creates someone, won't they fulfil everything that He chooses to happen? That means there is no freedom of choice because God has predestined us.

Ahhh the bogyman of calvinism raises it's ugly head again.. Nope we are not zombies created by an evil god,, one created to have etenrity in Paradise and another created to burn for eternity in the Lake of Fire.. God is not a twisted psychopath.. Gods foreknowledge of each individuels response to His revelation does not mean God created one person to accept His will and another to reject His will both having no free will to decide..

There are counter-arguments to this... but when you reconcile scripture doesn't is suggest that God makes us obedient or disobedient and we can only be saved (Scarcely) if he chooses for that to happen?

No...

While cavinists will tall you the calling of the Holy Spirit is irrisistable.. With their irrisistable grace pilllar in the 5 pillar TULIP doctrines the Holy Bible makes it clear that people can and have resisted the moving of the Holy Spirit.. Stephen the first martyr of the Christian faith made this clear in his denouncing of the priests in Jerusalem::

(Acts 7:51-53) "¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. {52} Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: {53} Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it."

 

[Blain]

I can fully relate to all, i get the feeling more than ever theese days that if satan is attempting to influence you, it's because something special is happening between your self and God,

And also if your getting a satan angry you must be something right 👍.

They seems to get more physical when you get weak,
I've recently just changed my diet, to a keto diets which basically having every meal as 60 percent healthy unfried fats 30 percent healthy protein from steamed meat only, and then only ten percent lightly steamed carbs which will consist of low glycemic carbs and berries mainly

What a difference its made to my well being, the amount of energy I have theese days is the best I've ever had

Theese demos have been goin mad trying to get me to change my diet for weeks lol.

I know people will laugh at that and say demons are not interested in your diet but there so wrong.

I know they love monster munch lol

You lnow last thanksgiving I had no food I was starving my stomach hurt but I chose to make that day about him honestly I had no idea it waas thanksgiving all the days blend together to me I have to actually ask what day of the week it is.

But with making it about him I took my hunger and called it fasting when I did this it was one opf the the few times his presence itslef filled my room like a thick golden fig I was in him not connected not with but in him

Fasting with the intent of being with him seems to have more imprtance than we realize you are with him in a different way. Looking back on scripture the jews ate a certain diet not just for religous reasons but even a king who did not know God at one point made their diet a law even seeing his soldiers be mkore alive more full of energy as they mainly feasted on meat.

There seems to be something with the human body what we put in it and the connection to God not just physically but spiritually, and I have to wonder if there is a reason healthy things are so much more costly aside from buisness and money afirs I my myself cannot affor healthy thing along with a low immune system from the cancer in my childhood having diebetess that is not consinsdered a type one or two it was drgug indused by the radiation how I am always so low on energy and any nkind of strength how I spend most of my time in bed but on that day of tanksgiving not even knowing it was that day I made it about him instinctively I chose not to complaine of my hunger but chose to see it as fasting and in turn was in a sea of his presence

I cannot say if he would let me afford it but whatever diet you are on I want to try it you clearly have tasted and seen this truth and honestly i want it whatever you have to share any way way I can feed my b ody so that I can in turn have him I would be very grateful as one one who at least once knows what you say is true from experience

 

[JimmyTheLock]

So in effect if God knows everything, and provides boundaries for Satan, doesnt that mean that He was in control when Satan tempted Adam, and when Satan tempted Jesus?

No, God is not the cause of man being tempted with evil...

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

It's a trick of the devil to try and convince people to believe God is the cause of evil and it's something that came out of the false doctrines of john calvin who... like the muzlims... believe God is the reason why all things happen both good and bad.

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

 

[Fundaamental]

You lnow last thanksgiving I had no food I was starving my stomach hurt but I chose to make that day about him honestly I had no idea it waas thanksgiving all the days blend together to me I have to actually ask what day of the week it is.

But with making it about him I took my hunger and called it fasting when I did this it was one opf the the few times his presence itslef filled my room like a thick golden fig I was in him not connected not with but in him

Fasting with the intent of being with him seems to have more imprtance than we realize you are with him in a different way. Looking back on scripture the jews ate a certain diet not just for religous reasons but even a king who did not know God at one point made their diet a law even seeing his soldiers be mkore alive more full of energy as they mainly feasted on meat.

There seems to be something with the human body what we put in it and the connection to God not just physically but spiritually, and I have to wonder if there is a reason healthy things are so much more costly aside from buisness and money afirs I my myself cannot affor healthy thing along with a low immune system from the cancer in my childhood having diebetess that is not consinsdered a type one or two it was drgug indused by the radiation how I am always so low on energy and any nkind of strength how I spend most of my time in bed but on that day of tanksgiving not even knowing it was that day I made it about him instinctively I chose not to complaine of my hunger but chose to see it as fasting and in turn was in a sea of his presence

I cannot say if he would let me afford it but whatever diet you are on I want to try it you clearly have tasted and seen this truth and honestly i want it whatever you have to share any way way I can feed my b ody so that I can in turn have him I would be very grateful as one one who at least once knows what you say is true from experience

maybe you should try the keto diet for a bit, I've found since starting it im eating like a king, really healthy and my shopping bill has dropped enormously.

Some of my new dishes are mouth watering deliciously good.

The best part is i went from 15 stone to 12 and half in two months,

I never got Hungary and all my meals are food you would expect in a high end restaurant 🙂.

For instance a weekly shop of normal everyday junk food for two people was 130 UK pounds a week.

Now its 105.00 UK pounds a week and the food is all fresh

Good quality meat including fish eggs and salad veg berries oil water nuts water herbs spices even almond milk
All fresh and all meals cooked in a away that no nutrients are lost


You mentioned you lack energy, well that was me all the time untill I went in the keto.

But it may not be for you, people get put of because they love the sweet stuff. But honestly you can have up 300 grams of berries a day and still include some veg like green beens or bell pepper or broccoli or Cauliflower, even a little bit of shallots garlic Avocado, lettuce spinach, there's no need to starve the sweet tooth,

As long as you get a blood meter that can check your staying in ketosis, but your ketones are not going to high and your blood sugar is not getting to low you'll stay in a healthy state of ketosis,

The thumb of rule is to limit your daily intake of net carbs to no more than 50 grams a day. All tho I go for 30 to 40 a day

All tho this type of diet is not advisable for some types of diabetics, as being in high state of ketosis can turn there blood acidic very quickly.

But I think you said your not type one or type two,

Which makes me think your pre diabetes, which means you could reverse that with this diet.

All tho you would advised to aim for a moderate state of ketosis and check your ketone levels and glucose levels regularly.

 

[maxwel]

I see. I didn't revive it, although I'm not against threads being revived. And there's nothing new under the sun so every new thread isn't actually new.

"... every new thread isn't actually new."


Oh My...

1.) Anything which is "new" does indeed have to be "new" within the constraints of some category of "new-ness" or we would not be able to label it as "new".

2.) Furthermore, if the category of "new-ness" for a forum thread is different than the category of "new-ness" for the expression in Ecclesiastes 1:9, then it is logically possible for there to be nothing "new" under the sun, while at the same time a forum thread could be "new".

3.) From the above 2 premises we can logically conclude: it's the weekend and I want to talk about stupid stuff.


.

 

[Cameron143]

"... every new thread isn't actually new."


Oh My...

1.) Anything which is "new" does indeed have to be "new" within the constraints of some category of "new-ness" or we would not be able to label it as "new".

2.) Furthermore, if the category of "new-ness" for a forum thread is different than the category of "new-ness" for the expression in Ecclesiastes 1:9, then it is logically possible for there to be nothing "new" under the sun, while at the same time a forum thread could be "new".

3.) From the above 2 premises we can logically conclude: it's the weekend and I want to talk about stupid stuff.


.

It's a fair distinction and a reminder I have yet to snatch the logic pebble from your hand.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

it's the weekend and I want to talk about stupid stuff.

Does this include advocating for the OSAS people?

 

[stilllearning]

No, God is not the cause of man being tempted with evil...

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

It's a trick of the devil to try and convince people to believe God is the cause of evil and it's something that came out of the false doctrines of john calvin who... like the muzlims... believe God is the reason why all things happen both good and bad.

Quite hyperbolic would you not say to attribute this notion to Calvin when it has existed from the beginning. Adam was the first one to say something was God's fault. The woman that you gave me, gave me to eat.

Adam was tempted with sin because he had already been led away with lust. If you love me you will keep my commandments. God commanded do not eat. Woman said take eat. Adam ate, he loved Eve more than he loved God. He loved the creation more than the creator.

Ultimately Adam loved himself more than God why he chose her over God. Which that persist even to this day it has been man's problem from the start and has not changed. When we love ourselves more then we find we are right. Everyman is right in his own eyes. When we find we are right then anything that happens has to naturally be someone else's fault be it God or a fellow man.

So we don't have to attribute to Calvin what has been natural to man from the start when he loves himself more than he loves God. So the devil does not have to convince anyone as we will already do so naturally because we love ourselves more. Improper love, not loving God first always leads to us finger pointing in any situation. It has been this way from the beginning.