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Scotth1960
Guest
Eastern Orthodoxy is a pharisaical temple cult, a harlot daughter of rabbinic Judaism.
That is a lie.
So, you're an expert on rabbinic Judaism? What Christians needs to know what the unbelieving Jews believe?
When you start telling the truth, then I'll have something that I hear from you that is correct.
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SantoSubito
Guest
It's not worship it's veneration which comes from the Latin word "Veneratio" which in the context we use it means "Reverence" as in "Respect". The honoring of Icons was confirmed as a holy and rightful practice by the Second Council of Nicaea (787). Which restored the Icons after an Iconoclast movement sought to destroy them. This same Council declared in defiance to the Byzantine Emperor that:
"As the sacred and life-giving cross is everywhere set up as a symbol, so also should the images of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, the holy angels, as well as those of the saints and other pious and holy men be embodied in the manufacture of sacred vessels, tapestries, vestments, etc., and exhibited on the walls of churches, in the homes, and in all conspicuous places, by the roadside and everywhere, to be revered by all who might see them. For the more they are contemplated, the more they move to fervent memory of their prototypes. Therefore, it is proper to accord to them a fervent and reverent adoration, not, however, the veritable worship which, according to our faith, belongs to the Divine Being alone — for the honor accorded to the image passes over to its prototype, and whoever adores the image adores in it the reality of what is there represented."
There is also archaeological evidence for this the earliest of which being a Marian fresco found in the Catacombs in Rome where the persecuted Christians under Nero worshiped.
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Scotth1960
Guest
Dear SantoSubito, Thank you kindly, dear sir! This goes to show that Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism were totally UNITED AS ONE CATHOLIC CHURCH, ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH, until 1054 AD. Rome accepted the 7 ecumenical councils. We should all return to the teachings of these 7 councils; any council after that that disagrees with them should be abandoned. Papal Rome has too many councils, and these don't all preach the whole truth. Florence, Vatican I and Vatican II were particularly erroneous.
God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
Its Idolatry.
(Exodus 20:4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
(Exodus 20:5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Scott...does the EOC worship icons?
Its either yes or no?
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SantoSubito
Guest
Its Idolatry.
(Exodus 20:4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
(Exodus 20:5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Scott...does the EOC worship icons?
Its either yes or no?
We kneel in prayer, not to the statue itself. Have you ever got on your knees to pray in a room with a cross in it? Bam, your guilty of what you accuse us of by your standards.
Also I do believe your interpreting what God said in Exodus in the wrong manner. God commanded the Israelites to put Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, he also commanded images to be put in the Temple in the book of Kings (it was either Kings or Samuel not sure which).
God would not order someone to break His own commandments, so the distinction that God clearly meant is do not make idols of false gods and do not set up idols of the things in heaven or Earth in order to worship them. And we do neither of those things.
Thats very weak dude. These people are clearly bowing down to a statue.
NO NEVER.
BAM...no I'm not.
The making of the thing is DIRECTLY LINKED to what you are DOING with the thing....BOWING DOWN TO IT. Its a full command...dont make images of things and bow down to them.
You set up idols and bow down to them. In that picture is an idol representing Mary. Your RCC brothers are bowing down to them.
Sorry but your talmudic lawyers labarynthine spiel cannot help you.
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SantoSubito
Guest
Are you a Catholic now? Do you know whats in our hearts when we kneel? How then can you say we are clearly doing such and such, when we deny we are doing any such thing? When I kneel In front of a Crucifix I am not kneeling to the Crucifix I am kneeling because that is a respectful posture to pray in, and it's how I have always been taught to pray. Same goes for statues of Mary and the Saints.
I do get endlessly tired of people saying we do this or that and when told that we don't do that basically just say "Well, yes you do, I said so".
The Bible says...
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them
What part of this do you not get? It doesnt say anything about heart condition just DONT BOW DOWN.
How were the Mosaic priests supposed to administer punishments to people if they had to look into their hearts and determine what the intention is?
It just says DONT BOW DOWN. If the Hebrews saw anyone bowing down to a statue thats VIOLATION of Gods Law!
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SantoSubito
Guest
You don't get it do you? We kneel in prayer not to the statue itself. Besides all the idols Mosaic priests would have encountered would have been of pagan gods so it would have been easy to spot. Comparing OT pagan idols to modern Christian statuary is comparing apples and oranges.
Prove those people are not bowing to the statue itself. Can you read their minds to discover their intent?
Gods Word says bow down. If we see someone bowing down in front of a statue its idolatry. Simplez.
Was the golden calf a pagan idol?
(Exodus 32:4) And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
(Exodus 32:5) And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
Gods - H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
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SantoSubito
Guest
If you track them down I would be more than happy to ask them which they were doing. I'd wager my left foot that they'll tell you exactly what I told you.
Actually yes it was. A calf or a bull had long been used as a symbol of power and fertility in pagan societies and Aaron would have been exposed to this in Egypt. I imagine his thinking was along the lines of "The Lord is powerful so a calf (a symbol of power) should be built to worship the Lord."
And how would you know they were telling the truth?
You've just proved my point. The calf symbolised the Lord. It was an idol to Yahweh. Idolatry to the Hebrew God. He didnt say a feast to Baal or another pagan god. He said a feast to the LORD. It was still Yahweh who they were worshipping but using a graven image. Case closed.
So idolatry is not always to pagan gods.
And RCC members are commiting gross idolatry by bowing down to ANY statue.
Calling any object Holy is also idolatry. Only God is Holy. Putting objects on the same holy level as God is idolatry.
G'night.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
So let me get this right. You do not refuse to admit that a dead faith is no faith at all. And James said that whoever claims to have faith but has no work his faith is dead. In which case, as you just admitted. they had no faith at all. And you want me to believe James Contradicted Paul who said we are justified by faith apart from works. And was not saying that those who have no works prove they had no faith? For if they had real faith THEY WOULD HAVE HAD WORKS? Which is the opposite of dead faith? And in Actuality, James is saying faith is proved by works. Which is exactly what Paul said many times? And not works which save us?
Sorry Scott. I can't make James contradict paul. Nor can I twist what he said and take two words to form my doctrine, especially when my eternity is at stake!
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Dear friend. He did nto make a repetative prayer.
Repetative prayer is repeating the SAME WORDS OVER AND OVER
Second. Jesus prayed this this night. And never prayed it agsain. Repetative prayer is praying the same words over and over and over. On multiple nights, months, weeks and years.
God wants us to talk to him as a father. Just like Jesus did. Would you talk to your father the way some of the orthodox and catholic people pray their repetative prayers? If I did that my father would slap me for mocking him!
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SantoSubito
Guest
Because I trust people to tell the truth especially those of a religious persuasion.
You've just proved my point. The calf symbolised the Lord. It was an idol to Yahweh. Idolatry to the Hebrew God. He didnt say a feast to Baal or another pagan god. He said a feast to the LORD. It was still Yahweh who they were worshipping but using a graven image. Case closed.
So idolatry is not always to pagan gods.
And RCC members are commiting gross idolatry by bowing down to ANY statue.
Calling any object Holy is also idolatry. Only God is Holy. Putting objects on the same holy level as God is idolatry.
G'night.
I've already told you that we don't bow to the statues. But the main point is they worshiped the calf, we don't worship our statues or Crucifixes. The images are there to turn the mind to God and the holy things of faith not to act as an intermediary through which God is worshiped which is what the calf was used for.
Repetitive prayer isn't bad, nor do we strictly talk to God as if he is our earthly father, since he is God you know. It's basically praying for the same thing again and again.
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Scotth1960
Guest
Dear Strangelove, That is a group of Roman catholics
(papists). These are not Eastern Orthodox Christians. You
should know the truth: Orthodox Christians do not bown
down before graven images, which is what statues are. A
graven image is a carved, three dimensional images. Not all
images are forbidden; God commanded images of carved
cherubim to be made upon the Ark of the Covenant, so not
all images are forbidden. He only authorized this on the Ark;
God did not authorize statues of Christ, the Virgin, or of any
Saint. You are making the logical fallacy: similar proves the
same. You think Roman Catholicism is similar to Eastern
Orthodoxy. Actually, they are two completely different, rival
faiths. Whereas Protestantism and Roman Catholicism are
two complementary, united sides of the same Augustinian
coin. While not all Protestants believe in the Filioque, most
of them do, so most Protestants are Augustinians, like their
Roman Catholic brethren or cousins. They're members of the
same self-idolatrous, self-worshipping, Augustinian family.
Eastern Orthodoxy is a whole different family, with whole
different brethren, fathers, mothers, sons, and daughters,
and a whole different God; the True God of the Bible and the
Church; whereas Roman Catholics and Protestants in perfect
unity together in the Filoque heresy worship a false god, a
god of idolatrous, narcissistic self-worship. I know whereof I
speak; as a sinful Lutheran, antinomian, and fleshly
Pentecostal charismatic, I sinned mightily against the Holy
Law of God.
God have mercy on my soul. God have mercy on your soul
too.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington August 2011 AD
(Exodus 20:4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven
image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under
the earth:
(Exodus 20:5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor
serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the
third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Scott...does the EOC worship icons?
Its either yes or no?
Strangelove.
NO. The EOC does NOT worship icons.
In Erie Scott Harrington.
Dear friend Strangelove,
Are Protestant ICONOCLASTS, and is iconoclasm a heresy, according
to the Second Council of Nicaea of 787 AD, a Council of the Holy
Church that Jesus Christ Himself founded? Yes. Protestants are
herestics for rejecting the holy icons. They are just like the Muslims,
who deny the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. They also forbid images.
And Muslims are pagans. Protestants are not quite pagans, but they
are schismatic heretics whose heresy can lead them into paganism, as
my heresy did lead me into paganism, that is, into demonism.
Demonistic charismatic renewal. More from my own sin than from
any teaching that they taught, but they didn't warn me about my sin.
I didn't receive any teaching that my particular sin was forbidden by
Scripture.
I sinned.
All because it agrees with workless faith.
Faith alone heresy. Without works of repentance.
Some Protestants are also hypocrites, because some of them make
statues of Martin Luther and of John Calvin, and make painted images
of Luther and Calvin, all the while forbidding images of the Orthodox
Saints. Luther was more open minded toward holy images, but
Lutherans generally don't make icons of any saints or of the Virgin
Mother.
They are also hypocrites if they make photographs of family
members: wife, mother, father, sister, brothers, but forbid images of
other Christian family members: Christ, the Virgin Mary, the Saints of
the Old and New Testaments, the saints of the later Church.
GOD BLESS YOU. AMEN; IN ERIE PA SCOTT R. HARRINGTON
Excerpt from the EOC liturgy:
Open unto us the door of thy tenderheartedness, OBlessed Theotokos; in
that we have hoped in thee,may we not perish, butthrough thee be
delivered from adversities, for thou art the salvationof the generation
of Christians.
Then they approach the icon of Christ and kiss it, saying:
Thine immaculate icon do we worship, O Good One,asking pardon of our offenses, O Christ God; thou wast pleased of thy goodwill to ascend the
Cross in the flesh, to deliver those whom thou hadstfashioned from
bondage to the enemy. Wherefore, in thanksgiving, we cryout to thee,
with joy hast thou filled all things, O our Savior, havingcome to save
the world.
Then they kiss the iconof the Theotokos, saying the troparion:
A fountain of tenderness art thou, O Theotokos; makeus worthy of
compassion. Look upon the people who have sinned; show thypower as ever,
for hoping in thee, we cry out to thee, Hail, as once didGabriel, Chief
Captain of the Bodiless Ones.
You were saying Scotty?